Ford Bypass Valve - Do Mobil 1 / K&N cause damage?

[Sayjac]

^Previous post.
Originally Posted By: sayjac
I think Gary Allan likely can be more precise in the answer...

As I was saying!

That said, the M1 and K&N both have silicone ADBV, so they should be more reliable than nitrile. Perhaps though the quality control is not as good on some brands, or you simply got a bad one.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: sayjac
^Previous post.
Originally Posted By: sayjac
I think Gary Allan likely can be more precise in the answer...

As I was saying!

That said, the M1 and K&N both have silicone ADBV, so they should be more reliable than nitrile. Perhaps though the quality control is not as good on some brands, or you simply got a bad one.

The FL-820S, the filter being discussed, has a silicone ADBV........

 

[Gary Allan]

Yep ..that "S" on the end kinda tells it all.


..but any filter, even with a silicon ADBV, can have a defective one ..or any other defect for that matter.

The world is an imperfect place.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Yep ..that "S" on the end kinda tells it all.


..but any filter, even with a silicon ADBV, can have a defective one ..or any other defect for that matter.

The world is an imperfect place.


For sure.

Interesting note: The Fleetguards I have, and my Donaldson's pass the "blow test".

How indicative that is of in-use performance I don't know, but hey, it's kind of fun

 

[SuperBusa]

Originally Posted By: Art_Vandelay
The Motorcraft 820S has the Bypass valve on the threaded end of the filter. That's where Ford wants it and it's set to the correct psi according to their specs. Mobil 1 and K&N filters have the valve located in the dome end (as does almost everyone but wix)and possibly doesn't have the exact psi setting Ford mandates.


Find out what the Ford spec is for the required filter bypass valve - it will be based on the oil system's design for the applicable engine in question. Then find out what the bypass valve setting is on the Mobil 1 and K&N. If within the Ford spec, the there shouldn't be any issue, regardless of where the bypass valve is located in the filter.

Now if you were a Subaru owner, and needed a filter with a bypass valve setting of 23 psi, and then used a filter like Mobil 1 or K&N that had a bypass setting of 8 or 10 psi ... then I'd be concerned.

 

[Sayjac]

Quote:
Originally Posted By: sayjac
^Previous post.
Originally Posted By: sayjac
I think Gary Allan likely can be more precise in the answer...

As I was saying!

That said, the M1 and K&N both have silicone ADBV, so they should be more reliable than nitrile. Perhaps though the quality control is not as good on some brands, or you simply got a bad one.

The FL-820S, the filter being discussed, has a silicone ADBV........
Actually, I was responding (again) to the Art's initial question regarding the use of M1, and an issue with one at start up, and K&N filters instead of the Motorcraft. It was only later in the discussion he mentioned an issue of a with an FL-820S at start up, which I am well aware also has a silicone ADBV.... The mention of nitrile here was strictly as comparison to generally cheaper low line filters. Never intended to imply the 820 had a nitrile adbv.....

 

[Art_Vandelay]

Let me ask this:

A completely empty, newly installed filter causes a "dry start" condition. With an accompanying noise at start-up.

Can an oil filter ever go into a state whereby it causes a dry start condition?

 

[tig1]

Originally Posted By: Art_Vandelay
Let me ask this:

A completely empty, newly installed filter causes a "dry start" condition. With an accompanying noise at start-up.

Can an oil filter ever go into a state whereby it causes a dry start condition?


Art,
Even when I change oil with a new filter I never get any noise on start up. I know M1 clings well to internal engine parts so that may be the reason I get no noise on start up.

 

[Gary Allan]

Originally Posted By: Art_Vandelay
Let me ask this:

A completely empty, newly installed filter causes a "dry start" condition. With an accompanying noise at start-up.

Can an oil filter ever go into a state whereby it causes a dry start condition?



Oddly worded question here (good one). Let me kick one back at you.

Are you asking if a filter can fail and create an oil starvation situation?

The reason I'm asking is that the wording "go into" implies (or at least inspires the vision) that the filter changes some how ...as in one mode to another. As far as its role in the "start" part of the whole thing, well, it's just sitting there either empty ..partially full ..or full. The valve may have held ..held the filter partially full ..or completely full.

The starting event is (obviously) transitional. The filter has a mechanism to prevent oil starvation and media collapse. It's the bypass valve. It limits the resistance that the filter can present to flow, and limits the stress on the media. If the bypass valve was defective, then you would probably see the oil punch a hole somewhere through the media. This can also happen if the filter is left in place under the wrong conditions too long. For example, something like a low ball old style Champ clicker bypass ..put on by a quicklube ..and the owner never gets around to changing it ..and just adds oil for 6 months through a short trip 4 season climate. In that case, the bypass valve spring probably remains intact, but the media progressively decays. The oil continues to degrade ..the media is saturated, and the bypass is engaged whenever the engine is running ..putting constant stress on the media.


..but.. in the confines of your question .. a reserved "no".

 

[Art_Vandelay]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Originally Posted By: Art_Vandelay
Let me ask this:

A completely empty, newly installed filter causes a "dry start" condition. With an accompanying noise at start-up.

Can an oil filter ever go into a state whereby it causes a dry start condition?



Oddly worded question here (good one). Let me kick one back at you.

Are you asking if a filter can fail and create an oil starvation situation?



No I wasn't really asking about filter failure.

The question came to mind, as a result of the noise I got at 20F start-up, when I switched to the Mobil 1 filter. Since that sound was virtually identical to the "dry start" sound a newly installed, empty filter causes, I thought perhaps they were related. Therefore I was just wondering if some convergence of cold temperature, different psi specs( on the Mobil 1) Bypass valve or ADBV could have caused a dry start state in my car?

 

[Gary Allan]

Well, yes ..but not normally. I subscribe to Aristotle's, "one swallow does not the summer make" policy when viewing such things.

I tend to object to the "NEVER AGAIN!!" code of conduct with the first incidence of "I don't like" occurs. One need only run into a string of random variables and end up with no options if such a policy is strictly adhered to and you happen to be the focal point of too many random occurrences.

It's fine if you want the condition to go away ..and may be your only option. It may never determine the origin of the problem. There's no mandate that you do.

For example: A person experiences lingering HLA (hydraulic lash adjuster) noise after start up. Upon recommendation by an expert, he switches from his PureOne to a PP or some other lower efficiency filter. The user integrates that the filter was the cause of his noise ..and extends that to mean that PureOne's are too restrictive. What he never gets to figure out is that his oil pump is worn and/or is of lower efficiency. He may have a scored or leaking relief valve that shows itself more prominently at startup and makes a normally transparent filter ..apparently restrictive.

That is, the true problem isn't the filter, but changing the filter relieves the symptom.

There's a big difference between the two views for the truth of the matter even thought there's no difference in effect.

The real test is when your condition is somewhat unique while millions of other users don't experience it.

 

[Art_Vandelay]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Well, yes ..but not normally.


Thank you. It's nice to know that it is possible. If unlikely.

I left the Mobil 1 filter in service. It is on there now. I try never to say never again. Besides at higher temperatures there is no noise.

 

[SuperBusa]

Originally Posted By: Art_Vandelay
The question came to mind, as a result of the noise I got at 20F start-up, when I switched to the Mobil 1 filter. Since that sound was virtually identical to the "dry start" sound a newly installed, empty filter causes, I thought perhaps they were related. Therefore I was just wondering if some convergence of cold temperature, different psi specs( on the Mobil 1) Bypass valve or ADBV could have caused a dry start state in my car?


If the filter is orientated in such a way where a leaking ADBV would cause all the oil to leak out of the oil filter after sitting for a long time, then YES, at startup the filter would basically be empty ... just like if you just installed a brand new one during an oil change and then fired up the engine. "Dry start" scenario ahoy.

Of course, the colder the oil temp, the more "cold start" flow issues will appear depending on the oil viscosity and oil filter being used.

Start an engine at -25 F with conventional 10W-30, and then with full synthetic 10W-30 and I’d bet you’ll hear a difference in engine noises at startup. Then do the same thing with one oil filter that has an 8 psi BPV setting, and again with one that has a 23 psi BPV setting. You can see the trend that I’m striving for here. Using conventional 10W-30 and a filter BPV setting of 23 psi at a -25 F startup probably would be a good thing.

 

[beanoil]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
I've noticed no noise with the Fleetguard I've been running on my 5.4L.

X2 here. Stratopore media and Rotella T 5w40 in my 5.4 .

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: beanoil
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
I've noticed no noise with the Fleetguard I've been running on my 5.4L.

X2 here. Stratopore media and Rotella T 5w40 in my 5.4 .


WOW! We are running a VERY similar combo then!

I'm running CI-4+ M1 TDT (Delvac 1) 5w40 with the LF16002 (Stratopore) filter!

 

[Art_Vandelay]

Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
Originally Posted By: Art_Vandelay
The question came to mind, as a result of the noise I got at 20F start-up, when I switched to the Mobil 1 filter. Since that sound was virtually identical to the "dry start" sound a newly installed, empty filter causes, I thought perhaps they were related. Therefore I was just wondering if some convergence of cold temperature, different psi specs( on the Mobil 1) Bypass valve or ADBV could have caused a dry start state in my car?


If the filter is orientated in such a way where a leaking ADBV would cause all the oil to leak out of the oil filter after sitting for a long time, then YES, at startup the filter would basically be empty ... just like if you just installed a brand new one during an oil change and then fired up the engine. "Dry start" scenario ahoy.

Of course, the colder the oil temp, the more "cold start" flow issues will appear depending on the oil viscosity and oil filter being used.

Start an engine at -25 F with conventional 10W-30, and then with full synthetic 10W-30 and I’d bet you’ll hear a difference in engine noises at startup. Then do the same thing with one oil filter that has an 8 psi BPV setting, and again with one that has a 23 psi BPV setting. You can see the trend that I’m striving for here. Using conventional 10W-30 and a filter BPV setting of 23 psi at a -25 F startup probably would be a good thing.

I believe this is the case for me. The GC, Mobil 1 filter and cold temperature combined to cause start up noise.

I'm going to leave this filter on the car for my next interval. I have some Mobil 1 0W-20 screaming to be used. When the ice cold hits, it will be interesting to see if I get any start up noise with one of the variables changed.

My car holds 5 quarts but I guess the filter is going to hold onto 1/2 quart of the GC. Any concern mixing these 2 oils?

 

[Gary Allan]

I wouldn't worry about it, Art.

 

[Art_Vandelay]

Thank you.

 

[stangyellow]

Just came across this old thread, and the "rattle" upon startup is a common issue with certain 4.6L's. There is a TSB from Ford on this noise. It has to do with oil not getting on top of the valvetrain on cold startups. 99-04 2V engines are notorious for it.... not sure if thats whats being discussed here.

http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/problems/tsb/

**99-04 GT engines, not sure on truck/suv's. The GT's have different heads**

 

[Gary Allan]

That's why the 820S is specified. It's to reduce customer complaints. You'll note that there's no prohibition on using nitrile ADBV filters. It's not a "damage", per se~, issue.