If I plan on running 15w50 Mobil 1 EP exclusively, is there any reason I can't break in a solid flat tappet cam on it?
Long story short -
8.6:1 compression, aluminum headed 3.1L GM motor, with a T61 huffing 10psi currently into it (oil cooled only) and going to be running a solid flat tappet cam (215/215º @ .050", .435/.435" lift), and this motor will see 7200rpm at least 3 times a day, lol.
I'm trying to figure out what I should do, as far as oil is concerned. I was thinking of breaking it in on Rotella 15w40, drain that after cam break in, and fill it with M1 15w50.
Now, I don't know much about oils, but I'm worried about the reduction of zinc levels. I've always run 50 weight oil with my turbo 3.1, as I was under the impression it would survive the head better. Is this so? What would you guys run, if you were in my shoes?
Flat tappet camshaft break-in?
- Thread starter Doward
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I would do an oil change at 500 miles than an another at 2500 miles and then 5000. After that use the mobil 1 EP change it at 10,000 miles thats a 5k OCI and do an UOA. Then use it as indicator for your future OCI's. But if your useing a HDEO like Rotella I dont think that a synthetic is needed. Why do you want to use M-1 EP?
I was under the impression, that the synthetic held up better when dealing with a turbocharger, especially if it is oil cooled only
The synthetic M1 is great for your cam break in.
I don't like using the heaviest common oil possible, however.
I havent read this board for months, but just happened to cruise by and your question caught my eye. Your setup is rather mild, but the first few minutes of running will have much to do with your engine life nevertheless. If you want to do it right, find some straight SAE 30 Rotella T or Delo 400 at a truck stop and blend in well (in a suitable container) one bottle of GM EOS using an electric drill and a stirring device. Do this just before running the engine, otherwise the EOS will end up in the bottom of the pan and stay there. If you haven't put the cam in yet, use Federal Mogul assembly lube, rather than a moly paste or grease, even if that sounds counterintuitive, or if someone advises you not to.
Prime the engine, have it timed and the fuel pressure up so it will start right up. Place a fan in front of the radiator and light the little V6 off. Rev immediately (and I mean immediately) to 2000 rpm or so, and don't blink for 20 minutes. After that, drain and fill with something a little more conventional than a 15-50 syn, say 15-40 Delo 400. This way works every time, which is why research engines are put together this way at the labs. If you have to have a low-vis oil this winter, try one of the 5W-40 HDEOs. Your lift and spring pressures don't put you into the critical area, but I haven't heard of any very good tests yet on SM oils on a setup like yours, and I wouldn't want to be one of the the first to experiment. Good luck.
mechtech, why don't you like using a heavy oil?
My impression is that a heavier oil will protect better, but may give me a slightly higher internal friction loss.
I'm in Florida, and I have a strict rule with my car - it starts, and idles a minimum of 45 seconds before I go anywhere. So I don't mind running a heavier oil - in fact, I prefer it, if it does, indeed, have better protective properties.
I'm also looking into Redline oils, as well - I've heard good things about them, but I'd rather do more research, first. This motor won't be together, until after the New Year ![[Wink]](images/icons/wink.gif)
Why? Using the heaviest oil possible is something to do when they're shooting at you.
Heavy oil doesn't flow well, has a lot more drag, and runs hotter.
I'd overfill your crankcase 1/2 qt. or so, and use a 5-30 or 10-30 synthetic, for break in.
Try to keep the revs up, with minimal idleing.
quote:can you still get this stuff? i haven't seen it on shelves for a long time. -michael
Originally posted by AEHaas: I am running 0W-20 Mobil 1
Doward, as I read the replies to your question, I think that I should explain to you that your cam is the critical-path item in your engine break-in, and it needs to be fully broken in (it takes 20 minutes to fully break in a cam) before you change to your synthetic or whatever and drive the car. The cam is cast iron, ground but not hardened, and the break in process burnishes and work-hardens the surface to give you a smooth and wear-resistant finish. You lose a lot of metal in this process, and need a LOT of extra AW in the oil fully develop that smooth, work-hardened surface (hence the need for the EOS). Running the cam at 2000 rpm accelerates the valvetrain and lightens the forces acting on the cam nose, letting the nose stay nice and pointy, instead of kind of blunt and plowed-looking. Don't idle the car for 45 seconds first time you light it up: go right up to speed , and don't drive it around, especially not at low rpms, and don't use some 5W-something syn until after the first 20 minutes. Then you can drive it around, with lots of progressively-harder, but brief, accelerations to seat the rings. If your block was done by a good rebuilder, and not bought from a parts store, the machining will be good enough that you will not need a long break in process. If it's a 'generic long block' you may have cast-iron rings which will 'bore as they go', and if you suspect this, re-ring with moly-faced rings from Federal Mogul, etc. before you run the engine. If any of this advice seems out of place to you, please call the tech guys at Lunati, Comp, Crane, etc. and ask them how to handle your cam, just please don't put a 0W or 5W something in it and drive it around.
AV8R is dead on in everything he has posted. I've seen many SBC's live long and healthy lives using the above methods for camshaft breakin.
Many "break in" oils are actually thin. Ferrari delivers the Maranello with a 5W30 for example but recommends a 5W-40 for all uses thereafter. The Maybach comes with a 5W-30 but recommends a 0W40. Break in oils generally have more Zn and other additives to prevent scuffing and many are in fact synthetic these days.
Heavier does not necessarily protect better. It may actually be worse, especially if your oil does not get hot.
Most say it is best to start a car and go but keep the revs down. You want to warm the oil to get it thin. Thick oil results in start up wear. This is where 90 percent of engine wear and tear occurs. It takes 15 to 20 minutes for oil to get up to normal operating temperature.
aehaas
PS I am running 0W-20 Mobil 1 in the 575 Maranello, 5W-20 Red Line in the Maybach and 0W-30 in the Murcielago.
quote:Isn't that kind of a misleading figure though? If I start my car on a cold winter day, but then drive it hard for an hour, I'd be willing to bet that the start up wear was not as significant as the hard driving portion.
This is where 90 percent of engine wear and tear occurs
Recommended GM Crate Engine Start-Up Procedure
1. SAFETY FIRST! If the car is on the ground, be sure the emergency brake is set, the wheels are chocked, and the transmission cannot fall into gear.
2. Be sure to check the oil level in the engine and prime the oil system with an engine priming tool! This is the most important step! Your crate engine has most likely sat for a while and most of it's lubrication has drained back to the pan!
3. Quality 10W-30 or 10W-40 Oil is recommended for GM's Performance Crate Engines. Most Stock Factory replacement engines use either 5W-30 or 10W-30 oil. If you plan on running synthetic oils, we recommend that a new engine is first broken in with regular mineral type engine oil.
4. Adjust the distributor timing roughly by hand for quick start up and smoothest idle possible.
5. Set the ignition timing after engine starts.- Starting point for most carbureted crate engines is 10 degrees Before top dead center with vacuum advance disconnected. Computer controlled engines with a distributor are generally set at 0 degrees before top dead center with the set timing connector disconnected (refer to your vehicles service manual for details)
6. Flat tappet hydraulic cams only- (Such as the 250 hp-350, 290hp-350 & 330hp-350 Run the engine between 2,000 and 2,500 RPM's, with no-load on the engine for the first 30 minutes. This is critical to break in the camshaft.
7. Roller Cammed engines (such as the ZZ4, F.B. 385, 383's and big blocks) do not need to follow the procedure in step 6 because roller cams do not need to be broken in.
8. Remember that the cooling system on a fresh engine swap will have a lot of trapped air, which will lead to wild temperature gauge readings and possible water pump cavitation (water pump not moving coolant due to trapped air) To help avoid trapped air in the cooling system, try to fill the cooling system up with a 50/50 mix of quality coolant and water a few hours before you plan on starting the engine. Leave the radiator cap off during this time. This will tend to help purge a fair amount of trapped air before you start the engine. Specialty fill funnels can also be purchased from Listle tools and Snap-On dealers that help alleviate this problem. Also helpful during break-in is to use a Lever-Vent type radiator cap on your radiator in so that you can manually purge trapped air while engine is running- (use extreme caution to avoid being burned by hot coolant) Your normal cap can then be re-installed after engine cools off.
9. Drive the vehicle with varying speeds and loads on the engine for the first 30 miles. Be sure not to use a lot of throttle or high RPM.
The following 2 steps generally are not necessary due to our advanced piston ring sealing technology, but can be performed to help ring break in.
10. Run five or six medium-throttle accelerations to about 3000 RPM (40 to 50 MPH), then letting off in gear and coasting back down to 20 MPH.
11. Run a couple hard throttle accelerations up to about 5000 RPM (55 to 60 MPH), then letting off in gear and coasting back down to 20 MPH.
12. Let engine cool and change the oil and filter and check coolant level, top off if necessary.
13. Drive the next 500 miles normally, without high RPM's (below 5000 RPM), hard use, or extended periods of high loading.
14. Change the oil and oil filter again.- Keep an eye on oil level during the first thousand or so miles.
15. Your engine is now ready for many happy cruising miles!
Info source - Jim Pace Performance
AV8R is incorrect, because all modern camshafts are hardened.
The arbitrary '20 minutes' of break in time is just a number thrown out there.
if you read such sites as crane cams, comp cams, or other reputable source, not that i'm saying here isn't a reputable source ![[Razz]](images/icons/tongue.gif)
everything said thus far is mostly correct but certain pieces of information stated apply to specific applications. What Mike said, quoted from JiM pace performance, is correct.
For the engine in question, all it boils down to the camshaft and lifter setup. Roller lifters (because they roll on the cam lobe) are not as critical and don't need a special breakin procedure. Flat tappet lifters either solid or hydraulic do require a break-in and it is very important. Avoid unnecessary spinning over of the engine before the 1st run. Preferably spin the oil pump to prime oil system if possible. Start engine and bring immediately to 2000 rpm minimum and maintain it for at least 20 minutes. Your only running in neutral at 2000-2500 rpm no load, what this does is provides adequate oil (pressure and flow) to the cam and lifters for lubrication. The speed is also necessary to make the lifters spin in their bores to create proper wear pattern on the face of the lifter where it rides the cam. Low rpms on a new cam/lifter setup will cause uneven wear on the lifter because it either won't spin or doesn't get adequate oil, and it's life will be short. And it may also shorten the camshaft life, cam lobes are very hard (ie hardened) but not invulnerable.
For the reasons just stated, 15w50 isn't the best choice. first, you won't be driving the car so the turbo and heat should not even be a consideration. A 10w30 dino oil will be your best bet, that'll give you the best oil flow at startup. If you're starting up at 30-40 deg F ambient temp, then go a 5w30. As for zddp levels, it's true most SM rated oils will have lower values so either look for one of the non-SM rated brands or add a supplement such as GM EOS.
Valvoline supplement I believe is just a big dose of zddp, someone else can confirm that.
After the 20-30 minute cam breakin, dump the oil then run one of the 15w-40 or 15w-50 for when driving the car.
why synthetic oil during this break-in procedure is not recommended I'm not too sure of. My best guess is synthetics are too slippery, and you want some friction and wear to happen on the cam for the wear pattern to develop. Maybe the break-in time would just take longer with a synthetic, in any case many engines have been broken in on cheap 30 weight dino and do just fine and no sense in spending more on a synthetic when you're only going to dump it 30 minutes later.
everything said thus far is mostly correct but certain pieces of information stated apply to specific applications. What Mike said, quoted from JiM pace performance, is correct.
For the engine in question, all it boils down to the camshaft and lifter setup. Roller lifters (because they roll on the cam lobe) are not as critical and don't need a special breakin procedure. Flat tappet lifters either solid or hydraulic do require a break-in and it is very important. Avoid unnecessary spinning over of the engine before the 1st run. Preferably spin the oil pump to prime oil system if possible. Start engine and bring immediately to 2000 rpm minimum and maintain it for at least 20 minutes. Your only running in neutral at 2000-2500 rpm no load, what this does is provides adequate oil (pressure and flow) to the cam and lifters for lubrication. The speed is also necessary to make the lifters spin in their bores to create proper wear pattern on the face of the lifter where it rides the cam. Low rpms on a new cam/lifter setup will cause uneven wear on the lifter because it either won't spin or doesn't get adequate oil, and it's life will be short. And it may also shorten the camshaft life, cam lobes are very hard (ie hardened) but not invulnerable.
For the reasons just stated, 15w50 isn't the best choice. first, you won't be driving the car so the turbo and heat should not even be a consideration. A 10w30 dino oil will be your best bet, that'll give you the best oil flow at startup. If you're starting up at 30-40 deg F ambient temp, then go a 5w30. As for zddp levels, it's true most SM rated oils will have lower values so either look for one of the non-SM rated brands or add a supplement such as GM EOS.
Valvoline supplement I believe is just a big dose of zddp, someone else can confirm that.
After the 20-30 minute cam breakin, dump the oil then run one of the 15w-40 or 15w-50 for when driving the car.
why synthetic oil during this break-in procedure is not recommended I'm not too sure of. My best guess is synthetics are too slippery, and you want some friction and wear to happen on the cam for the wear pattern to develop. Maybe the break-in time would just take longer with a synthetic, in any case many engines have been broken in on cheap 30 weight dino and do just fine and no sense in spending more on a synthetic when you're only going to dump it 30 minutes later.3 reasons not to use synthetic on break in, it will take longer (could be hours), the cost of the oil you are going to dump in 30 min and being paranoid about synthetic oil being too slippery.
But be that as it may, when I installed a new GM crate 5.0L engine in my 1992 pickup (from Pace), I had them (local GMC dealer) put in synthetic oil and I ran all last winter, about 7,000 miles on the 5W-30. Never used any oil in that time.
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