Flat tappet cam problems/zinc additive removed..

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OldGuy1700

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Hi, new to this forum!

I have heard of more thatn one problem with flat tappet cams failing lately, especially new ones in performance engines and have heard that the problem is that zinc and other anti wear additives are being removed from oils.

Does anyone know what can be done besides changing to a roller cam setup, I have just over 500 miles on a newly rebuilt 440 with a Comp Cams kit and so far no problems but have talked to one engine shop that has seen a rash of failures this last year. I have been using diesel rated oil which is supposed to be safe, for now.....

Are we doomed or is there maybe an additive to use???
crushedcar.gif
 
Use STP oil addtive in the blue bottle. It has around 2000ppm of Zn and P. It should be able to raise zink levels about 100ppm in weaker motor oils.
Cost, about $2 after sales tax at wall mart.
GM E.O.S. assembly lube has around 6500ppm of Zn. It says on the bottle not to add it to the oil but several members do with out problems.
Cost around $12, get some form your local GM dealer.
Mobil 1 MX4T 10w-40 weight oil has around 1800ppm of Zn, it is SG,SH rated.
Cost, about $8.70/Qt after sales tax at your local wall mart. It has the Most ZDDP for the $ for any oil I know of.
Mobil 1 V-twin, the same as MX4T, only difference is its 20w-50 weight.
Shell Rotella T synthetic, its SJ rated and has about 1100ppm of Zn.
Cost, about $16/gal.
In my flat tappet engine I wouldn't let it have any less then 1000ppm of Zn.
After running SM rated Mobil 1 (around 700ppm of Zn) for half a year then changing to MX4T and running 20'F cooler with out any other explanation other then it happed right after I changed my oil I'm set on using oil with lots of Zn.
 
The STP will thicken your oil quite a bit. There may still be some CD-2 Street Legal High Performance Oil Boost (SLOB) at Big Lots (selling for $1 or %2 a pink pint bottle). SLOB has about 4800 ppm zinc and phosphorus, much more than STP and won't thicken the oil nearly as much. Also Big Lots has the CD2 75K high mileage additive with 4000 ppm zinc and phos.
 
Depends on your spring rates. If you have normal spring rates ..don't worry about it. If you're running 200lbf on the seats ..worry about it.
 
Quote:

There may still be some CD-2 Street Legal High Performance Oil Boost (SLOB) at Big Lots (selling for $1 or %2 a pink pint bottle). SLOB has about 4800 ppm zinc and phosphorus, much more than STP and won't thicken the oil nearly as much.

Click to expand...

There are also a few places still selling VSOT ("Valvoline Synpower Oil Treatment"). VSOT not only has the zinc of SLOB, but also has a fair amount of moly (another anti-wear additive). And if you search through old posts in the additive forum, you will see that VSOT is generally thought of (by other BITOG members) as an overall better additive mix than SLOB.

BTW: My approach is to add a little VSOT in with the synthetic oil I am using on my older cars (I have a number of bottles of VSOT stashed away in the basement, so I don't have to hunt to find where I can buy it). That way, I get the quality base oils of the new style synthetics, plus (use VSOT to) add back in the older style anti-wear additives (hopefully getting "the best of both worlds", by that mix)...

NOTE: No need to use the whole bottle (no matter what the instructions say) if you buy/use VSOT. Many on the additive forum have pointed out that one ounce (of VSOT) per quart of oil (about 1/4 of what the VSOT instructions recommend) actually works fairly well, and doesn't thicken the oil up nearly as much as pouring the whole bottle in. So even if you wanted a lot of anti-wear additives, I would still consider starting with only maybe 1/2 of the bottle, and working your way up from there...
 
Sounds more like a QC issue to me from what I have read and not an oil related issue.
dunno.gif
 
I think its overhyped. I find that cams/lifters have been failing for years. The builders and parts suppliers just found something new(API SM) to blame. Poor manufacturing, cheap materials, bad heat treating, poor machining, poor assembly, poor break-in,....have been causing cam issues for as far back as I can remember.

Here are some causes of cam failures that I've seen when using "high zinc oils".

Cheap overseas sourced parts that are low quality were probably the biggest culprits. Make sure that the parts that you use are high quality. Notice that availability these parts seem to correspond with newer oil specs...

Make sure that your engine rebuilder knows what he is doing. The same should apply to the machinist. Everybody makes occasional mistakes.

Make sure that you use a proper assembly lube. Normal motor oil and vaseline are not. You'd be surprised what some ol' school and backyard mechanics use as assembly lube.

Make sure you prime your oiling system and that the oil level is perfect after priming. This prevents the clown in control of the gas pedal that starts this engine from revving it high while still dry.

Use an oil PSI gauge. I shut down several new engines simply because of inadequate oil PSI. Where'd that there dangit oil pump rod or galley plug suppose to go?

Make sure you follow the standard variable RPM no-load break-in procedure. Most aftermarket brands and rebuilders have directions on how to break in your components.

Allow engine to complete cool down after that initial run in. Change oil/filter and break 'er in again. I've seen too many yahoos race their new engine down the street with no break-in whatsoever. Yeah, they had issues a few months later.

For those of you that want peace of mind, forever add GM EOS, or an equivalent, to the oil that you plan on using. This way, you won't be able to blame the oil when the failure occurs. You'll have to look elsewhere but I provided many hints.

HDEO(diesel), motorcyle oils, and race oils also will give the peace of mind. The VOA/UOA sections in this forum has a ton of info to help you choose an additive or oil if you are picky about 'seen' additive levels.

No more slob available at the 3 biglots around here. Is it finally sold out? VSOT is also hard to find here.

I'm due for a cam upgrade in one of my cars. Can anyone recommend a good zinc-free oil?
grin.gif
 
I sorta agree with undummy,

Yes cam and lifter issues have been around for many many years. The internet is a source of information that accelerates the "word of mouth" compared to even a decade ago. If someone has a problem and posts it on a forum hundreds and thousands of people can read about it.

Even if an engine builder is an excellent one he/she will get into trouble due to QC of parts these days and yes a lack of zinc.

I use moly disulfide paste on the nose of my cam and flat tappets. on the lifter bores I use white lithium assembly grease or I will use torco assembly red lube. I have over 320lbs on my nose of my cam and aprox 150 lbs seat pressure.

I use tool steel lifters for my 2332cc aircooled vw engine. No plugs in, and I spin the engine till my oil pressure light goes off (30-45 seconds) on a virgin fresh engine. I fill the oil pump with white lithium grease for faster pumping of oil in dry oil galleries.

With the tool steel lifters I DO NOT even break in the cam. I drive the car at whatever rpm I feel like. If the engine is built right with the excellent parts I dont worry. This method breaks in the piston rings immediately due to load.

If I was using the typical junk cast flat tappets out there I would be doing the 20 minute cam/lifter breakin.

Since my tool steel lifters can be used over and over again with different cams I love them!!!!! I also have schubeck ceramic lifters in my stash of parts so I would do this same exact breakin' procedure (start and drive) and NEVER have an issue of cam or lifter problems. Flat cams are almost unheard of with these kind of lifters regardless of what spring pressure.

For typical cast lifters Gm eos will be your best friend. Or spend $640usd on a set of schubecks (Cheap compared to labor and new cam and lifters when problems arise) or source out some tool steel listers for your ride and use oil with no gm eos.
 
Use a good 10W30,15W40 or 5W40 heavy duty diesel engine oil like the following: Rotella-T Synthetic 5W40, Rotell 15W40,10W30,Delvac 15W40, Mystic Synthetic Blend 15W40 and Ford MotorCraft Diesel Certified 10W30. These all have plenty of zink and calcium!
 
Quote:

Use a good 10W30,15W40 or 5W40 heavy duty diesel engine oil like the following: Rotella-T Synthetic 5W40, Rotell 15W40,10W30,Delvac 15W40, Mystic Synthetic Blend 15W40 and Ford MotorCraft Diesel Certified 10W30. These all have plenty of zink and calcium!

Click to expand...


Oddly enough alot of people do use alot of zinc and still have problems. Oil isn't the only reason or solution. The foundation has to hold up to it aswell.

Tells you the crown of the lifter head and taper of the cam lobe is working or not working in sync. NO spin of the lifter head wil cause hotspots and then failure is soon to follow.

Stock valve spring pressures are typically wimpy and will not be as bad as a higher pressure. Alot of idling also adds more load to the lifter/cam contact point.
 
I tried the search function first, no results....

I know all about the outsourcing to China etc and the lack of quality, I did hear about EOS from Delco but was not sure about it as they say it is not to be used for an additive but I think that is what I will try.

My cam and lifters are not stock so I will worry, and my engine builder is a good freind and has got notices from most of the cam manufacturers warning about the problem, he has seen a number of cams fail right after start up using cam lube...

I don't think it is overhyped because I have known him for years and trust him. I also thought of stocking up but have been told that the additives will seperate and not to use oil that is over 2 years old, to me it seems the old tech engines are done for as most, if not all, engines are built with rollers.......

Thanks for the info!
 
Not trying to be a wiseacre - just type in the word "tappet" here:

http://theoildrop.server101.com/forums/search.php?Cat=0

Then change/type in 1 year in the "Newer than" field.
Change the results shown per page to 100.

Make sure a "All Forums" is highlighted. Click on submit. You'll get lots of good reading material, including this thread - it sucks because it shows the same thread repeated.

Anyhow this question gets asks more than once per week. With Comp Cam - I would be worried and seek a well built oil, such as a synthetic HDEO 15W-40 with over 1000 ppm Zn and P.

In our PNW I would use Amsoil HDEO 15W-40

Or Amsoil 20W-50 Racing Oil
 
Agreeing with UnDummy. There are procedures and procedures. And Don't put STP in it, I've seen those messes. The "others don't have problems" is not very scientific. UOA will help. And I still believe in the Diesel formulations for all.
 
Not trying to be a wiseacre - just type in the word "tappet" here:

Silly me, I typed in "flat tappet cam failure zinc" and did not get much...

Just "tappet" returned better info...
 
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