First oil change and UOA on VW 2.0 TDI

SportwagenTDI · Jun 14, 2009

Hi everyone,
Here is the UOA on my first oil change. The oil change was done at 9600 miles. I am worried about the high Al levels. I know that the wear metals will be higher during break-in, even my second oil change and UOA will probably still show a bit higher levels until they stabilize. Should I just not worry too much about the Al?

Thanks!

Fe: 65
Cr: 4
Ni: Al: 150
Pb: Cu: 48
Sn: Ag: Ti: Si: 29
B: 8
Na: 29
K: 543
Mo: 6
P: 512
Zn: 738
Ca: 1216
Ba: Mg: 12
Fuel% Vol: Water% Vol: Vis. (cst) @ 100C: 11.0
SAE grade: 30
Glycol test: negative
TBN: 2.55

BobFout · Jun 14, 2009

What were the lab comments on the AL levels?

FowVay · Jun 14, 2009

Here's my UOA at 3100 miles. Your numbers seem to be typical of the CBEA engine when brand new. At least our engines are similar. I've seen a few lower numbers and I'm not sampling again until 30,000 miles.

Your numbers My numbers at 3100 miles

Fe: 65.............66
Cr: 4..............3
Ni: Al: 150............142 (flagged abnormal)
Pb: Cu: 48.............41
Sn: Ag: Ti: Si: 29.............21
B: 8...............1
Na: 29.............13
K: 543.............33
Mo: 6..............4
P: 512.............876
Zn: 738............901
Ca: 1216...........1505
Ba: Mg: 12.............15
Fuel% Vol: Water% Vol: Vis.@ 100C: 11.0...11.27
TBN: 2.55..........4.08

So you can see our wear numbers are very similar. I hope you're not having any troubles out of your new car. Other than a tire that seems to be out of round and causing a vibration mine has been performing well. My mileage is at 6400mi so far. I did my initial oil change at 3100 due to the expected high wear metals. My next interval will be at 10,000 miles.

SportwagenTDI · Jun 15, 2009

BobFout,
They just mentioned that this is typical for break-in conditions but they did say to monitor Al, Cu, and TBN.

Thanks!

SportwagenTDI · Jun 15, 2009

Hi FowVay (cool name by the way...say it like the Germans do)
These numbers are surprisingly similar. I have seen some lower numbers too...Al being in the 60s PPM after about 5500 miles. But yours are a bit higher after less miles. I think that each engine is a bit different during break-in and so you get wide variations in wear metals early on between engines. Interesting data though. I will retest mine at 20,000 miles again and probably still expect the wear metals to be a bit higher than some of the UOA for TDI engines after 50 - 60 K. I think it may not have quite stabilized yet. But at 30K I expect all levels to be pretty low. Thanks for sharing your data!
The only think that I had with the car is an occasional hesitation/hiccup (sometimes bucking) during low load acceleration in 3rd gear. I had the dealer check it multiple times and they couldn't find anything. I finally told them to change the fuel filter and it seems to have improved, but the verdict is still out since it was recently done.

Thanks again for you data. Very interesting to compare...I suspect that mine probably had about the same values as yours at the 3000 mile mark and just didn't shed too much more wear metals from 3000 to 9600 when I had it changed.

addyguy · Jun 15, 2009

Potassium is high (K=543)...doesn't that mena there is a problem here?

1999nick · Jun 16, 2009

Originally Posted By: SportwagenTDI
Hi everyone,
Here is the UOA on my first oil change. The oil change was done at 9600 miles. I am worried about the high Al levels. I know that the wear metals will be higher during break-in, even my second oil change and UOA will probably still show a bit higher levels until they stabilize. Should I just not worry too much about the Al?

Thanks!

Fe: 65
Cr: 4
Ni: Al: 150
Pb: Cu: 48
Sn: Ag: Ti: Si: 29
B: 8
Na: 29
K: 543
Mo: 6
P: 512
Zn: 738
Ca: 1216
Ba: Mg: 12
Fuel% Vol: Water% Vol: Vis. (cst) @ 100C: 11.0
SAE grade: 30
Glycol test: negative
TBN: 2.55

9600 is a lot of miles on the factory fill. Doesn't VW still specify the first oil change at 5,000 miles, the second at 10,000, and thereafter at 10,000 mile intervals?

BobFout · Jun 16, 2009

Starting with 2009s first change is at 10K miles.

ekpolk · Jun 17, 2009

Originally Posted By: BobFout
Starting with 2009s first change is at 10K miles.

Are they taking the Honda approach, in which they INSIST you keep the initial fill in place until the change point, or are they merely expanding the recommended OCI (leaving open the possibility of changing early if the owner wishes)?

ekpolk · Jun 17, 2009

Sportwagen:

Welcome to our site. Thank you very much for posting this UOA. I know we have a lot of sub-fora here, so it's hard to get the "lay of the land". That said, I'm going to go ahead and move this over to the UOA sub-forum. Not really "wrong" that it's here, but that's a better place for it.

EKP

BobFout · Jun 17, 2009

Hm. Well....I guess it would be insisted the first change at 10K miles. The manual states the first change at 10K miles(and every 10K after that). Nothing is mentioned of changing at 5K if the owner desires.

If most dealers had their way, we'd change the oil every 5K miles no matter what (and would have been for the past 8 years)

.

FWIW I think Europe has had the "10K mile first oil change" for some years now.

SportwagenTDI · Jun 17, 2009

They changed it to 10K for the first oil change. Just since the 2009 model year.

SportwagenTDI · Jun 17, 2009

Thanks ekpolk. I appreciate the guidance.

scurvy · Jun 18, 2009

SportwagenTDI, your inital UOA looks fine. I would not worry about it at all.

However, please do make sure they used the correct oil in your car. These days the only oil most stealerships carry that is certified to VW 507.00 is Longlife III 5w30, part number GVW-052-195-M2. If they did not use this oil, take it back and demand they use an oil that has been VW certified to meet the 507.00 standard.

Personally, once the car is out of warranty I would move to a non-VW 5w40 synthetic diesel oil. I have done exactly that in my 2006 Golf TDI, which now has Schaeffer 9000 5w40 in the crankcase.

Neil Womack · Jun 20, 2009

I've decided to take the dealers free oil changes. I do watch them to make sure the correct oil is used. Than I change it again half way through the 10k interval.

I plan on drawing a sample at 25k to see what is going on. I would like to find a VW 507 oil with some moly in it.

Tornado Red · Jun 21, 2009

Originally Posted By: SportwagenTDI
Hi everyone,
Here is the UOA on my first oil change. The oil change was done at 9600 miles. I am worried about the high Al levels. I know that the wear metals will be higher during break-in, even my second oil change and UOA will probably still show a bit higher levels until they stabilize. Should I just not worry too much about the Al?

Fe: 65
Cr: 4
Al: 150
Cu: 48
Si: 29
B: 8
Na: 29
K: 543
Mo: 6
P: 512
Zn: 738
Ca: 1216

TBN: 2.55

These seem to be very typical numbers for UOA from the initial fill after ~10k miles.

I would not be concerned about the aluminum or copper or any other wear numbers -- it's normal that soft metals should wear during the initial breaking-in process. I've also seen enough of these to know that the potassium and silicon are normal, and probably the sodium.

I am a little concerned about the low TBN -- I know that's also normal, but I still find it worrisome. And this is low probably because of the low calcium and phosphates. Also, I do not like the low levels of zinc.

As soon as the warranty period is over, or maybe even sooner, I'd recommend looking for another oil with a more-robust additive package.

It's good to have a library of UOA for relatively new TDI engines. But if anyone else is thinking of testing at 5k or 10k miles, I would just suggest that there is not that much more to learn from the results. You might as well wait until later in the breaking-in process... maybe 30k miles?

scurvy · Jun 22, 2009

Originally Posted By: Neil Womack
I've decided to take the dealers free oil changes. I do watch them to make sure the correct oil is used. Than I change it again half way through the 10k interval.

I plan on drawing a sample at 25k to see what is going on. I would like to find a VW 507 oil with some moly in it.

I wouldn't bother changing it at 5k intervals. 10k is fine, conservative if anything.

Originally Posted By: TornadoRed
As soon as the warranty period is over, or maybe even sooner, I'd recommend looking for another oil with a more-robust additive package.

It's good to have a library of UOA for relatively new TDI engines. But if anyone else is thinking of testing at 5k or 10k miles, I would just suggest that there is not that much more to learn from the results. You might as well wait until later in the breaking-in process... maybe 30k miles?
I couldn't agree more, on both counts. Especially on doing UOAs before the engine is approaching break-in - you're just tossing money away. Have a look at the Mobil 1 ESP 507.00 offering for an approved oil that has a different additive package. Having decided to finally stay off-book for my TDIs, does anyone make an oil that stays a true 40 weight (ie, doesn't start out as a 40 weight and shear down into the 30 range) that's 507.00?

First oil change and UOA on VW 2.0 TDI

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