Firearms and the Law

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Originally Posted By: MGregoir
In situation number 1, you still can rather handily flee...or at least run him over. No need to use a gun.

In situation 2, you shoot.


I agree with this asessment. I tend to look at it as once the playing field is 'levelled', ie, you both have guns, you are allowed to use it, as it is just as easy for him to shoot you as vice-versa, and you DON'T want to be the last to shoot there.

In the first scenario, once you are more than 5 feet or so from the person, OR in something like a vehicle, the chances of the attacker actually killing you quickly are very little.
 
Originally Posted By: wavinwayne
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
...Optionally, I would throw a bottle of ACCEL SA motor oil at them - that would scare ANYONE enough to run away.


Judging by the fact that the SA motor oil bottles I see at Wal-Mart never seems to collect dust, I'm afraid the public isn't nearly as afraid as they should be.
We got a lot of antique engine guys around here - they may use it for drip and splash lube. Optionally could not you use it as a building block for you own 'custom' formulation? Just add the ADD you want, and dump the magic elixur in your '63 Riv 425 Nailhead with dual carter AFB's;)
 
If the person approaching you is a Mexican, or anyone with darker complexion, you will probably get away with murder even. But I would think twice before shooting a white person - you will both be on a level ground in the eyes of the investigators.
 
Originally Posted By: CivicFan
If the person approaching you is a Mexican, or anyone with darker complexion, you will probably get away with murder even. But I would think twice before shooting a white person - you will both be on a level ground in the eyes of the investigators.


WOW. . .
 
Originally Posted By: rg200amp
Originally Posted By: CivicFan
If the person approaching you is a Mexican, or anyone with darker complexion, you will probably get away with murder even. But I would think twice before shooting a white person - you will both be on a level ground in the eyes of the investigators.


WOW. . .


WOW indeed.
 
Originally Posted By: CivicFan
Originally Posted By: rg200amp
Originally Posted By: CivicFan
If the person approaching you is a Mexican, or anyone with darker complexion, you will probably get away with murder even. But I would think twice before shooting a white person - you will both be on a level ground in the eyes of the investigators.


WOW. . .


WOW indeed.


Not the case. The man was not tried/convicted because his actions fell well within the boundaries of Texas Penal Codes, not because of anyone's skin color. That article was extremely poorly written as far as relaying factual information. Castle Law is pretty strong and clear in Texas. It's unique, and likely not fully understood by those living outside of this state. I think your comment was toned incorrectly, but likely mislead by the errant article.
 
In scenario 1 you should give a verbal warning, like "back off".

If it's night you may have a better defense, as the pipe was dark and shiny like a gun, and you couldn't make it out.
 
Originally Posted By: CivicFan
If the person approaching you is a Mexican, or anyone with darker complexion, you will probably get away with murder even. But I would think twice before shooting a white person - you will both be on a level ground in the eyes of the investigators.

O.J.
 
I'm a deputy sheriff...that being said, I recommend escaping the scene if you can. Reverse the car, drive off the side of the road, and drive around the angry Mexican swinging the pipe. If you do this, this shows intent that you did not want to be involved with the conflict, that you are a reasonable person that was trying to flee from danger. This makes you look good...

If your car was blocked in and you couldn't flee the scene, I would pull the gun out of the glove box. Lay it in your lap. When the angry Mexican approaches you, point the gun at him and verbalize to him that you will protect yourself (Don't believe the crrapp above about never pointing a gun at a person unless you intend to use it. Lawful threat of self defense by simply pointing a gun at an assailant has deescalated many conflicts) I wouldn’t shoot at him until he has bashed a window out. If he wants to bash the head lights out, or beat on the hood, so be it. But I personally wouldn’t shoot him until he bashed a window out. You could reasonably articulate that you were in fear of death or great bodily harm once the window was bashed out.
 
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Originally Posted By: bubbatime
I'm a deputy sheriff...that being said, I recommend escaping the scene if you can. Reverse the car, drive off the side of the road, and drive around the angry Mexican swinging the pipe. If you do this, this shows intent that you did not want to be involved with the conflict, that you are a reasonable person that was trying to flee from danger. This makes you look good...

If your car was blocked in and you couldn't flee the scene, I would pull the gun out of the glove box. Lay it in your lap. When the angry Mexican approaches you, point the gun at him and verbalize to him that you will protect yourself (Don't believe the crrapp above about never pointing a gun at a person unless you intend to use it. Lawful threat of self defense by simply pointing a gun at an assailant has deescalated many conflicts) I wouldn’t shoot at him until he has bashed a window out. If he wants to bash the head lights out, or beat on the hood, so be it. But I personally wouldn’t shoot him until he bashed a window out. You could reasonably articulate that you were in fear of death or great bodily harm once the window was bashed out.


As a deputy sherif you should know the law - you just can't point your weapon at a person w/o intent to protect yourself (that is USE the gun). That's the LAW - period. Howevcer - I do agree with you in that many crimes are prevented by the mere showing of a firearm by the victim and I wish the law would allow for the pulling of your weapon w/o firing if the threat suddenly ceases.
 
Originally Posted By: GMBoy
Originally Posted By: bubbatime
I'm a deputy sheriff...that being said, I recommend escaping the scene if you can. Reverse the car, drive off the side of the road, and drive around the angry Mexican swinging the pipe. If you do this, this shows intent that you did not want to be involved with the conflict, that you are a reasonable person that was trying to flee from danger. This makes you look good...

If your car was blocked in and you couldn't flee the scene, I would pull the gun out of the glove box. Lay it in your lap. When the angry Mexican approaches you, point the gun at him and verbalize to him that you will protect yourself (Don't believe the crrapp above about never pointing a gun at a person unless you intend to use it. Lawful threat of self defense by simply pointing a gun at an assailant has deescalated many conflicts) I wouldn’t shoot at him until he has bashed a window out. If he wants to bash the head lights out, or beat on the hood, so be it. But I personally wouldn’t shoot him until he bashed a window out. You could reasonably articulate that you were in fear of death or great bodily harm once the window was bashed out.


As a deputy sherif you should know the law - you just can't point your weapon at a person w/o intent to protect yourself (that is USE the gun). That's the LAW - period. Howevcer - I do agree with you in that many crimes are prevented by the mere showing of a firearm by the victim and I wish the law would allow for the pulling of your weapon w/o firing if the threat suddenly ceases.


You do not seem to know the law all that well either. . .
The DA is not going to say "you pulled your gun, why did you not kill the man"
If the situation called for you pulling your gun, and in doing so you did not have to fire, you would have been following the law, with no worries.

Yes the only time you pull a gun on someone is when you intend to stop them. Death can be a side affect of stopping them, but we are not trying to kill them, just trying to stop them. (from killing, hurting with intent to do major bodily harm, rapeing us, family, or other)

Now when you pull your gun to stop some one, and they turn and run, you cant just shoot at them since you feel "well I pulled my gun, I have to shoot him".

The Deputy sheriff is correct. Only pull your gun when you intend to use it, but once pulled, the baddy may have a change of heart about assaulting you.


POST 2000!
 
Yes situations are dynamic and rapidly changing. To say that you MUST shoot someone once you pull your firearm is reckless, idiotic, and criminal. You should NEVER ever want to use deadly force, unless absolutely necessary.

And you can absolutely point a gun at an assailant and not pull the trigger. That is not a crime. It becomes a crime when YOU are the assailant.
 
Originally Posted By: GMBoy
You will learn a lot in the CCW class.


Most guys that teach CCW classes can be considered gun shop "commandos" with no real life experience dealing with deadly force encounters. In all actuality it is a class that meets minimum requirements to get you a license. Do not take everything these guys say as gospel (grain of salt...) Also, don't stop the training there.

Originally Posted By: GMBoy
At least here in Texas where I am a CCW holder, you can only pull your weapon WHEN you are 100% sure you are going to use it and need to.


Pulling a weapon is a show of force and IS using it. Using it does not mean shooting it.

No need to turn this thing into a urination competition. Now back to your regularly scheduled bitog thread.
 
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Well, I am a CCW holder in TX, and my CCW instructer is/was an attorney (as well as ex LEO and military police.)

As long as you have a "REASONABLE"("reasonable" to be determined later by the DA or grand jury) fear for your, or someone else's physical safety, then you can employ deadly force to protect yourself, or another. That's it. The threat doesn't have to be stronger than you, or armed in any particular fashion.

That being said, my instructor was adamant about not getting yourself into a dangerous situation in the first place. If you use your head you can avoid most dangerous encounters and avoid any use of force, lethal or otherwise. Just because you pack, doesn't mean you have to use it.
 
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Originally Posted By: rg200amp
Originally Posted By: GMBoy
Originally Posted By: bubbatime
I'm a deputy sheriff...that being said, I recommend escaping the scene if you can. Reverse the car, drive off the side of the road, and drive around the angry Mexican swinging the pipe. If you do this, this shows intent that you did not want to be involved with the conflict, that you are a reasonable person that was trying to flee from danger. This makes you look good...

If your car was blocked in and you couldn't flee the scene, I would pull the gun out of the glove box. Lay it in your lap. When the angry Mexican approaches you, point the gun at him and verbalize to him that you will protect yourself (Don't believe the crrapp above about never pointing a gun at a person unless you intend to use it. Lawful threat of self defense by simply pointing a gun at an assailant has deescalated many conflicts) I wouldn’t shoot at him until he has bashed a window out. If he wants to bash the head lights out, or beat on the hood, so be it. But I personally wouldn’t shoot him until he bashed a window out. You could reasonably articulate that you were in fear of death or great bodily harm once the window was bashed out.



I'm not gonna argue with you guys because we are all from different states and each state has different laws. But for TEXAS - what I say is true. What you guys say is probably true where you live. Its all good.

As a deputy sherif you should know the law - you just can't point your weapon at a person w/o intent to protect yourself (that is USE the gun). That's the LAW - period. Howevcer - I do agree with you in that many crimes are prevented by the mere showing of a firearm by the victim and I wish the law would allow for the pulling of your weapon w/o firing if the threat suddenly ceases.


You do not seem to know the law all that well either. . .
The DA is not going to say "you pulled your gun, why did you not kill the man"
If the situation called for you pulling your gun, and in doing so you did not have to fire, you would have been following the law, with no worries.

Yes the only time you pull a gun on someone is when you intend to stop them. Death can be a side affect of stopping them, but we are not trying to kill them, just trying to stop them. (from killing, hurting with intent to do major bodily harm, rapeing us, family, or other)

Now when you pull your gun to stop some one, and they turn and run, you cant just shoot at them since you feel "well I pulled my gun, I have to shoot him".

The Deputy sheriff is correct. Only pull your gun when you intend to use it, but once pulled, the baddy may have a change of heart about assaulting you.


POST 2000!



I'm not gonna argue with you guys because we are all from different states and each state has different lawd. But for TEXAS - what I say is true. What you guys say is probably true where you live.
 
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Originally Posted By: bubbatime
Originally Posted By: GMBoy
You will learn a lot in the CCW class.


Most guys that teach CCW classes can be considered gun shop "commandos" with no real life experience dealing with deadly force encounters. In all actuality it is a class that meets minimum requirements to get you a license. Do not take everything these guys say as gospel (grain of salt...) Also, don't stop the training there.




Originally Posted By: GMBoy
At least here in Texas where I am a CCW holder, you can only pull your weapon WHEN you are 100% sure you are going to use it and need to.


Pulling a weapon is a show of force and IS using it. Using it does not mean shooting it.

No need to turn this thing into a urination competition. Now back to your regularly scheduled bitog thread.





Depends on your laws - in Texas that is not so. And this is not a urininating contest - it's conversation..
grin2.gif
Oh and you are Soooo right about some of those gun shop owners. I don't buy from the commando shops and I took my CCW from a private instructor who made the class for the Tx dept of safety and is used state-wide so he knows his stuff.
 
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In Pa. make up your mind that if you shoot some for any reason you will face a Civil lawsuit..by the victim or his relatives. And east of the Susquehanna the case will be tried in Phila..which is bad for the gun-user.
 
Originally Posted By: Al
In Pa. make up your mind that if you shoot some for any reason you will face a Civil lawsuit..by the victim or his relatives. And east of the Susquehanna the case will be tried in Phila..which is bad for the gun-user.


Rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6. . .


Hopefully with more support we can get this passed:
http://blog.pafoa.org/2009/05/27/castle-doctrine-introduced/

Write your senator!!!
 
I think you might do better to invest in an hour with a lawyer. A good defense lawyer will likely have already heard the questions you'll be asked in a worst case scenario and will be able to advise accordingly.

lp
 
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