Farewell, family civic, 375,000 miles

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meep

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Ah, it is with both sadness and celebration that I share the news of our 04 civic (moms). 375,000 and the auto trans finally gave it up. if I can recall....

dealer traced a reverse lights wiring fault under warranty
it needed a new alternator around 200k
replacement headlights from “sandblasting” around 300k, and Home Depot hardware was used to firmly reattach the bumper.
head gasket around 345k
it might have gotten a compressor at some point, I’m not certain
timing belts serviced every 100k, presumably with water pump

aside from oil changes, i swapped 3.5 qts of amsoil atf in to the trans twice.

the car went back and forth between my brother and my mom. She is very easy on cars. My brother doesn't misuse them (he likes good equipment), but he can load them with several hundred pounds of river gear and run then WOT on mountain passes at high altitudes forever.

it was a really good car... almost reached its 400k design life. Scrap yard came and got it.
 
Congrats. With 375K, you certainly got your money's worth out of it.

I had a great 13 year run with a 98 Civic that ended when it got stolen & totaled.
 
Congrats on racking up high miles with only a couple tranny drain and fills. I can never keep a vehicle long enough to accumulate so many miles. Thats amazing you had great luck with the car and I think the Civic is one of the most reliable vehicles made. It looks like you are doing the right thing and keeping the legend going strong with your 2015 Honda CRV. Happy motoring and great story!
 
meep said:
Ah, it is with both sadness and celebration that I share the news of our 04 civic (moms). 375,000 and the auto trans finally gave it up. if I can recall....

dealer traced a reverse lights wiring fault under warranty
it needed a new alternator around 200k
replacement headlights from “sandblasting” around 300k, and Home Depot hardware was used to firmly reattach the bumper.
head gasket around 345k
it might have gotten a compressor at some point, I’m not certain
timing belts serviced every 100k, presumably with water pump

aside from oil changes, i swapped 3.5 qts of amsoil atf in to the trans twice.

the car went back and forth between my brother and my mom. She is very easy on cars. My brother doesn't misuse them (he likes good equipment), but he can load them with several hundred pounds of river gear and run then WOT on mountain passes at high altitudes forever.

it was a really good car... almost reached its 400k design life. Scrap yard came and got it.
Click to expand...
400k design life? Is this in writing from Honda? Just curious as I believe the current design life for most modern automobiles is decidedly 150K.
 
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gregk24 said:
400k design life? Is this in writing from Honda? Just curious as I believe the current design life for most modern automobiles is decidedly 150K.
Click to expand...
This is something I’d read a number of years ago, maybe mid 2000s. I do not recall the source, but yes - that with proper maintenance under normal conditions, the design life the parts are engineered to was supposedly 400k. There’s probably some bell curve function which has some amount of allowed error, such as the rubber seal which pops early, etc..

if you think about it, then, that’s based on some series of theorized test and wear conditions, some anchored with hard data (from both simulated testing, engineering design and probably real-world experience from the engineering team), and others more armchair-anecdotal within their tribal knowledge (assumption on my part). In reality then it’s more of an increase in failure frequency throughout the vehicle as the life goes on. It seemed to hold true for this one. Everything started to come apart increasingly as 300, then 350 passed by.

an interesting consideration is that if their engineering goals do indeed target 400k, their bean counters must also follow these guidelines to some degree. Perhaps they cut costs on nice material fabrics, favoring plastics for instance, but not the thickness of said plastics or the remaining fabrics.
 
meep said:
This is something I’d read a number of years ago, maybe mid 2000s. I do not recall the source, but yes - that with proper maintenance under normal conditions, the design life the parts are engineered to was supposedly 400k. There’s probably some bell curve function which has some amount of allowed error, such as the rubber seal which pops early, etc..

if you think about it, then, that’s based on some series of theorized test and wear conditions, some anchored with hard data (from both simulated testing, engineering design and probably real-world experience from the engineering team), and others more armchair-anecdotal within their tribal knowledge (assumption on my part). In reality then it’s more of an increase in failure frequency throughout the vehicle as the life goes on. It seemed to hold true for this one. Everything started to come apart increasingly as 300, then 350 passed by.

an interesting consideration is that if their engineering goals do indeed target 400k, their bean counters must also follow these guidelines to some degree. Perhaps they cut costs on nice material fabrics, favoring plastics for instance, but not the thickness of said plastics or the remaining fabrics.
Click to expand...
If Honda was engineering their cars to go 400k back then we are all getting hosed now. Paying more for cars engineered to last 150k.

Obviously lifespan will vary and is dependent on level of maintenance performed, but there was a court case recently (year or so ago) where a number of automakers put in writing that “lifetime” was considered 150k.
 
gregk24 said:
400k design life? Is this in writing from Honda? Just curious as I believe the current design life for most modern automobiles is decidedly 150K.
Click to expand...
150k miles? Who said that? Considering it costs BILLIONS of dollars, yes that’s billions with a B to design a new vehicle, it makes absolutely no sense to design it with a 150,000 lifespan. Most owners manuals are limited to 150,000 miles to reassure people that they did good but attaining that mileage, and to encourage them to purchase another vehicle.

GM and Toyota validate their vehicles to last 300,000 miles. I’m not sure about the other mainstream players.
 
Bought a Civic around 1980 or so. $3000 new out the door. Could change the plugs in 5 minutes using a long T-handled wrench. I remember pulling them out, giving them the wire brush treatment and putting them right back in. Had that car a long time.
 
stower17 said:
150k miles? Who said that? Considering it costs BILLIONS of dollars, yes that’s billions with a B to design a new vehicle, it makes absolutely no sense to design it with a 150,000 lifespan. Most owners manuals are limited to 150,000 miles to reassure people that they did good but attaining that mileage, and to encourage them to purchase another vehicle.

GM and Toyota validate their vehicles to last 300,000 miles. I’m not sure about the other mainstream players.
Click to expand...
I've only heard it antidotally, and mostly on this site, so... it must be true.

It makes sense to me. 10 years, at 12 to 15k/year. I'm not sure how many new car owners keep their cars for 10 years though: I tend to think that most new car buyers are 5 and done, if not before then. Vehicles are passed around until cost of repairs condemn it to scrappage. 10 year old vehicles, once over 100k, were historically not worth much. But today they can thrive on the used car market, where someone will get those last miles--while fixing whatever breaks.

In terms of design goals, it needs to last longer than warranty, so as to keep resale high, at least until common perspective says "oh that's normal at those miles." Thing is, it's not like they can design it to fail at a certain miles, but more like, they design so that x% will last at least that long.

What is interesting is to mull over what it means to hit 200k without issues. Does it mean zero things not on the maintenance schedule? Are struts ok because they are a wear item--if so, what about suspension bushings? The odd a/c repair? Or is it a sum total of the repairs must not exceed some percentage of the vehicle purchase cost? I suspect many are using different metrics as to what they interpret "lasting" as meaning.
 
gregk24 said:
If Honda was engineering their cars to go 400k back then we are all getting hosed now. Paying more for cars engineered to last 150k.

Obviously lifespan will vary and is dependent on level of maintenance performed, but there was a court case recently (year or so ago) where a number of automakers put in writing that “lifetime” was considered 150k.
Click to expand...

A lot of maintenance booklets run out of room way before 150k. I wonder if the booklets are printed with design life of the vehicle in mind... I suppose if one has the final stamp put in at 120k service, this could make them consider trading in...
 
stower17 said:
150k miles? Who said that?
Click to expand...
Poster has a VW so 150K he believes is a good run. Many BITOG'rs would easily buy a corolla with 150K + 50K more and still get a reliable car.

Incidents of 300K, 400K cars seem to be predominately from (2) manufacturers. Don't settle for the normalization of 8 year old 150K cars soaking you.
 
My '03 Civic has much fewer miles but has also been relatively problem free. I needed a new head gasket at 158k (probably could've pushed it past 160k but I had the money so got it done), had water pump/timing belt changed at 136k, and the manual trans is showing signs of wear but still shifting smoothly. Currently at 160,350. Hoping the tranny stays healthy for another 3 years when I plan to retire it.
 
Sure, automakers use the term “full useful life” and set it to 150k miles, which is what you see in most owners manuals. They do this for legality reasons, not mechanical reasons.

But the fact is engineering is always improving. Engineers aim for improved structural rigidity and crash worthiness when designing a new vehicle. The fact is in order to have improved structural rigidity and crash worthiness, your mathematical calculations have to be spot on correct. That correctness spills over into the other engineering teams tasked with designing other vehicle systems. It’s no longer the days of just slapping on a roof panel, bolt on some doors and fenders, and hope that the engine fits. Those days are long gone. The attention to detail in vehicles is amazing, and it only continues to get more technical. The benefit is the more heavily engineered a vehicle is, the more likely it’s flaws are worked out in the design stage, resulting in a trouble free vehicle.

A vehicle can still have trouble prior to the 300,000 mile engineering goal. Little things may break, perhaps a power window motor, interior/exterior trim pieces. However the vehicle systems ie, brakes, engine/transmission internals, vehicle computer systems, are designed for a high life expectancy.

Here’s a good article about the Hyundai, Chrysler, Mitsubishi GEMA engines.


Hyundai develops long-life 4-cylinder engine

A high-tech engine family with a planned 300,000-mile life span will replace nearly all four-cylinder engines at the Chrysler group, Hyundai Motor Co. and Mitsubishi Motors Corp.
www.autonews.com www.autonews.com
 
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