Factory Fill 5w20, 10k miles, 2005 Honda Civic
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Pablo, my manual states 10k OCI for normal conditions (5k OCI for sever conditions); no mention of dumping factory fill at 5k. Guess you could say I went with Honda's (il)logic
double tap
Almost every type of driving the average joe will do should be considered severe. If you get in your car and hop on the highway, drive 25 miles, get off the highway, pull into work and get out that's considered normal. Highway is easy.
Patman wrote:
"I don't know what Blackstone is talking about here, it doesn't look like a serious amount of engine wear took place here. For a 10k run on the factory fill, this report doesn't look that bad at all."
I don't either, frankly. They often say that wear metals are abrasive, but unless there is a severe problem with an engine, (i.e. putting out chunks of metal) the wear metals are at the level (parts per million!) and not large enough to cause wear unless the metals are at a gargantuan rate, and that doesn't appear to be the case here. The silicon is high, but how much of that is dirt?
Maybe I'm wrong about this, but the real experts here have said as much.
I think this report is interesting and a pretty good one overall.
"I don't know what Blackstone is talking about here, it doesn't look like a serious amount of engine wear took place here. For a 10k run on the factory fill, this report doesn't look that bad at all."
I don't either, frankly. They often say that wear metals are abrasive, but unless there is a severe problem with an engine, (i.e. putting out chunks of metal) the wear metals are at the level (parts per million!) and not large enough to cause wear unless the metals are at a gargantuan rate, and that doesn't appear to be the case here. The silicon is high, but how much of that is dirt?
Maybe I'm wrong about this, but the real experts here have said as much.
I think this report is interesting and a pretty good one overall.
I agree with Alan: If Lindermant is lucky, he might be able to get 400K miles out of that engine. If the wear stays as is, only about 350K.. lol...
"Owner of a 89 Honda"
"Owner of a 89 Honda"
So, Blackstone's reviewer(s) isn't/aren't expert in his/their field? I was under the impression, 1> the whole purpose of a UOA was to uncover problems or potential problems at the molecular level, and 2> analysis labs are in business to provide unbiased recommendations based on stringent, instrumented analysis not Kentucky-windage, personal opinion, regardless of engine make or oil brand. Seems to my way of thinking if an owner waits until bearings are puking "chunks of metal", then it's far too late to do anything corrective short of actual repair.
Chunks of metal?
I only see a few PPM in a brand new engine where the universal average is less than this run. I respect Blackstone as a Sponsor and a lab but for top interpretation you need to get someone like Terry Dyson to tell you what's going on.
The collective mind set on this forum is calibrated for a very low tolerance of wear metals in UOA's. More of a tribute to BITOG maintenace than anything else.
I also do believe that Blackstone interpretations should be taken with a grain of salt. They are always interesting to read though.
I only see a few PPM in a brand new engine where the universal average is less than this run. I respect Blackstone as a Sponsor and a lab but for top interpretation you need to get someone like Terry Dyson to tell you what's going on.
The collective mind set on this forum is calibrated for a very low tolerance of wear metals in UOA's. More of a tribute to BITOG maintenace than anything else.
I also do believe that Blackstone interpretations should be taken with a grain of salt. They are always interesting to read though.
I think 10K is a bit long for a factory fill also. Remember, Dirt and wear create more wear and thats not good. The analysis looks good tho. Remember we are only measuring the particles less than 10 microns in size. Chunks alone wouldn't be detected by the spectrometer thats why we cut open the filter and look. 12 ppm copper looks ok. You can get more than that off of a penny in 30 seconds by rubbing between your fingers. The oil did its job. No worries.
lindermant, I think your wear metals are fine and your interval was not excessive for the factory fill.
These are my wear metals for my K20A3 after 5kmi on the factory fill:
Fe 22
Cr 1
Pb 8
Cu 5
Sn 3
Al 25
Ni 1
Mn 4
Si 95
My TBN was 4.2, but OAI used a different method that gives higher numbers than Blackstone.
These are my wear metals for my K20A3 after 5kmi on the factory fill:
Fe 22
Cr 1
Pb 8
Cu 5
Sn 3
Al 25
Ni 1
Mn 4
Si 95
My TBN was 4.2, but OAI used a different method that gives higher numbers than Blackstone.
Jay,
thanks for the extra data point! My UOA search parameters missed yours (and possibly others). I'll have to do another scrub
thanks for the extra data point! My UOA search parameters missed yours (and possibly others). I'll have to do another scrub
I sat here this morning thinking about whether to reply to this...but what the heck, it's Friday, right?
I don't think we were saying that he caused any serious issues, like Patman surmised. We were just saying that bearing wear (which compared to averages did read 2-3 times higher than we see in a typical Honda oil change) was high, and those metals are abrasive. Whether that's a problem or not just depends on who you are. Some people call us up when tin goes up 2 ppm, so that kind of wear would be horrifying to them. Some people think, eh, it's wear-in, and Hondas last forever anyway, so who cares?
Me, I think he didn't do any harm. Remember that from an analysts' standpoint, we don't know if we're working with Joe Easygoing or Joe Uptight, so we tend to err on the side of caution. Better safe than sorry, no?
And for the record, Blackstone has said many times that we advocate following the manufacturer's OCI recommendations. After all, when it comes down to warranty issues, they are the ones you have to tangle with.
Just a few thoughts from the Blackstone team!
Kristin
I don't think we were saying that he caused any serious issues, like Patman surmised. We were just saying that bearing wear (which compared to averages did read 2-3 times higher than we see in a typical Honda oil change) was high, and those metals are abrasive. Whether that's a problem or not just depends on who you are. Some people call us up when tin goes up 2 ppm, so that kind of wear would be horrifying to them. Some people think, eh, it's wear-in, and Hondas last forever anyway, so who cares?
Me, I think he didn't do any harm. Remember that from an analysts' standpoint, we don't know if we're working with Joe Easygoing or Joe Uptight, so we tend to err on the side of caution. Better safe than sorry, no?
And for the record, Blackstone has said many times that we advocate following the manufacturer's OCI recommendations. After all, when it comes down to warranty issues, they are the ones you have to tangle with.
Just a few thoughts from the Blackstone team!
Kristin
Kristin: Thanks for jumping in. You folks do a great job. Thanks for your support.
Kristin - THANKS - I agree with your reasoning, FWIW.
I can agree with the perspective of erring on the conservative side Kristen. You never know who you are dealing with. That being said interpretations are interesting to read. Thanks for jumping in!
Kristen,
I had a UOA done at another lab and someone just posted pretty close to the same results on the same engine.
The other lab flagged me as anti-freeze since I ran (for the last time) a Mobil product and it left sodium in the next change.
Your lab stated it up front.
You cost more but it's worth it! (and this is from a guy who only runs Under $1 a quart oil)
Thanks for jumping in here and doing a great job for us BITOG folks!
(any chance you can offer us a good discount if we prepay for 5-6 kits?)
Take care, Bill
Hi Bill,
Yes,we do offer a discount...I sent you a message detailing it, or you can read about it on our website. Thanks for the kind words. Have a great weekend!
Kristin
Yes,we do offer a discount...I sent you a message detailing it, or you can read about it on our website. Thanks for the kind words. Have a great weekend!
Kristin
Kristin - thanks for the reply!
Patman
Staff member
Thanks for your input Kristen!
While it's good to err on the side of caution, at the same time you don't want to alarm people too much either. You don't want someone to think their engine is in grave danger when in fact it's going to be just fine.
Of course, us picky people at BITOG want to see almost no engine wear whatsover when possible.
While it's good to err on the side of caution, at the same time you don't want to alarm people too much either. You don't want someone to think their engine is in grave danger when in fact it's going to be just fine.
Of course, us picky people at BITOG want to see almost no engine wear whatsover when possible.
Hmmm...All the wear metals are twice or more of the universal averages and people "don't see a problem with it"?
Every NEW Honda I've seen leave the dealership of late has a sticker in the window that says "next service 5,000 miles".
I think it was an unwise decision to leave the factory fill in for 10,000 miles/6 months. I think Blackstone said the same thing, except being extremely nice about it, since they like repeat business.
I am a Honda fan and have no fear about their engines making it to 300k without problems, IF properly maintained. And properly maintained in my opinion is changing the oil more frequent that normal during it's early childhood.
Every NEW Honda I've seen leave the dealership of late has a sticker in the window that says "next service 5,000 miles".
I think it was an unwise decision to leave the factory fill in for 10,000 miles/6 months. I think Blackstone said the same thing, except being extremely nice about it, since they like repeat business.
I am a Honda fan and have no fear about their engines making it to 300k without problems, IF properly maintained. And properly maintained in my opinion is changing the oil more frequent that normal during it's early childhood.
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