F35....just abandon the program already

[Hakkinen]

Originally Posted by JohnnyJohnson
Originally Posted by Hakkinen
Every pilot that works with it has nothing but praise. There are flight demos out there, very impressive. Clearly discredits the 20 degree AOA claim.

Yeah, the program is out of hand. It does bring a lot to the table however.



Well put it in a dog fight with an F22 or a Sukhoi Su-57 and see how impressive it isn't.


I completely understand your point. You can't shoot down what you can't see though, and the Su-57's RCS is much larger than the 35 and 22. So the Pentagon thinks.

Anyway I'm not a defense analyst. Just here to reassure myself that ST Dino is all I need.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted by rooflessVW
Is the Su-57 anything but dead in the water? How many does Russia have?

From what I've read, it's definitely going operational and seems to be a formidable platform in terms of sensors and weapons -- but it's not actually a true low-observable aircraft (exposed turbine faces, conventional engine nozzles, etc.), and Russia is only buying 16 or something.

 

[Danno]

Yup, I'm going to Daily Beast for my military aircraft article fix. /s
No and no.
Does any leading edge fighting plane need to be adjusted to work as intended? Everyone built to date.

The F35 and earlier fighters such as the F15 are designed to kill the enemy beyond visual sight with AMRAAMs and to not be seen 1st due to advanced stealth.
If the F35 is in a dog fight, something has gone very wrong in the "see 1st, kill 1st doctrine".
Made that one up but you get the point.

 

[vw7674]

You all better get back to taxable work to pay for this....this......umm.....'air superiority' ........there I typed it with a straight face.

 

[bubbatime]

Originally Posted by d00df00d
and Russia is only buying 16 or something.


The per unit cost has to be astronomical to design and build a modern fighter and then only buy 16 of them.

The US should offer to buy 84 of them to round it out to a nice even 100

 

[53' Stude]

Originally Posted by SubieRubyRoo
Bring back the Tomcat....

Darn right Chris! Astro14 can attest to a great airplane as the F-14

 

[spasm3]

Originally Posted by 53' Stude
Originally Posted by SubieRubyRoo
Bring back the Tomcat....

Darn right Chris! Astro14 can attest to a great airplane as the F-14


+1 updated tomcat

 

[PandaBear]

We don't do dog fight anymore. It is all about missile and how far you can shoot without a chance of ruining a hundred million dollar plane that you cannot replace in short order.

Is it necessary? Yes. There isn't anymore alternative that China and Russia caught up to the decade old planes we had. Plus we need to keep developing things and paying the military industrial complex both for the right and the wrong reasons. You need them to be stable so if things go really wrong in the world they'll be capable of coming to the rescue, and you also need to keep them away from trouble and keeping corruptions in the military industrial complex is better than keeping them in the military.

The same goes for the space program.

 

[Flashlightboy]

Originally Posted by Danno
Yup, I'm going to Daily Beast for my military aircraft article fix. /s
No and no.
Does any leading edge fighting plane need to be adjusted to work as intended? Everyone built to date.

The F35 and earlier fighters such as the F15 are designed to kill the enemy beyond visual sight with AMRAAMs and to not be seen 1st due to advanced stealth.
If the F35 is in a dog fight, something has gone very wrong in the "see 1st, kill 1st doctrine".
Made that one up but you get the point.


This is spot on correct!

In another part of my dark life I spoke with an individual who has hands on both the 16 and 35 and I asked him about air superiority and all that good stuff.

Without violating any clearances, the general answer was that in a dog fight the 16 would whip the 35's tooshie and do so without breaking a sweat however he said he'd still pick the 35 because it could kill the 16 while it was still at the airport a long way away.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted by spasm3
Originally Posted by 53' Stude
Originally Posted by SubieRubyRoo
Bring back the Tomcat....

Darn right Chris! Astro14 can attest to a great airplane as the F-14


+1 updated tomcat

Man, if only Astro14 would post in this thread to give us his own thoughts.

In fact, how crazy would it be if his comments were just a few posts up? That'd be something.

Not that that's literally what happened today at 1:48 PM Eastern or anything. Just thinking it'd be neat.

 

[tenderloin]

F-35's Star Wars Canyon

F35 Demo 2019

 

[BusyLittleShop]

Negative on the abandonment... F35 is a brilliant stealth design and I support it...

 

[4WD]

Agree … they just need a little more testing - please fly them low altitude up and down the Texas (southern) border ...

 

[Astro14]

Originally Posted by spasm3
Originally Posted by 53' Stude
Originally Posted by SubieRubyRoo
Bring back the Tomcat....

Darn right Chris! Astro14 can attest to a great airplane as the F-14


+1 updated tomcat


I'm a huge Tomcat fan (as everyone knows...and if you don't know that, go read my thread on the F-14). But that ship has sailed. To bring the airplane back would cost as much as a new airplane.

While no airplane built before or since can match the F-14 speed, range, payload, radar size, or landing speed, it is not stealthy.

There are potential scenarios, potential adversaries, against which the USN genuinely needs stealth to survive.

Enter the F-35.

I am not a fan of the program, but I recognize the need for the airplane.

And by all accounts that I've seen, both in print and talking to guys, the airplane is performing well.

You want to read some scathing criticism? Google news articles back in 1972 about the Navy's overpriced, underperforming waste of taxpayer's money: the F-14. How it failed all of its tests. How it was no good. How the cost was spiraling out of control.

Or journalism in 1938, about the complete waste of money by the US Army on fielding a new rifle that was too heavy, too unreliable, and too expensive: the M1 Garand.

How about this: The US Navy under criticism for fielding a new class of ship. The new ship had an new, unproven design, using new construction materials that hadn't been tried before. In a huge pork-barrel boondoogle of congressional funding, construction was spread across multiple shipyards, instead of the designing shipyard building them, and the cost was spiraling out of control. Congressional leaders were calling for inquiries.

The year was 1795, and the ship class was the first six frigates of the US Navy, including the USS Constitution. They were brilliantly designed, as it turned out, and very successful in combat.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_six_frigates_of_the_United_States_Navy

 

[Virtus_Probi]

Originally Posted by PandaBear
We don't do dog fight anymore. It is all about missile and how far you can shoot without a chance of ruining a hundred million dollar plane that you cannot replace in short order.
Is it necessary? Yes. There isn't anymore alternative that China and Russia caught up to the decade old planes we had. Plus we need to keep developing things and paying the military industrial complex both for the right and the wrong reasons. You need them to be stable so if things go really wrong in the world they'll be capable of coming to the rescue, and you also need to keep them away from trouble and keeping corruptions in the military industrial complex is better than keeping them in the military.
The same goes for the space program.


The US military decided early in the Vietnam era that dogfighting was dead and early Phantoms didn't even have an internal cannon as a result.
Then came the realizations that IFF was not perfect and friendly aircraft could also have a damaged IFF transponder and we probably didn't want to shoot them down. Visual ID rules started to be used, so then the Phantoms were getting into dogfights with MiG-21s and such with no cannon and no combat options once missiles were expended. The Sparrow of the time were also found to be a less than ideal option for dogfighting and suddenly there was a big focus on improving the short range Sidewinders. Cannon pods were rushed out and later Phantom models were built with internal cannon.

We are not the only ones working on stealth...if everybody gets stealthy enough and without huge advances in radar, IR, and other means of aircraft detection, we're back to dogfighting after visual ID again.

 

[Mr Nice]

ZERO possibility the government will abandon the F-35.

If they did..... what *new* aircraft would take its role ?

 

[Astro14]

While we can hide an airplane from radar using stealth, it is not magic.

It's also hard to hide the heat made by a jet engine. The IRST on the F-14D worked very well at tracking airplanes at very long ranges.

Multispectral sensors and sensor fusion is very important. The F-35 has multispectral sensors and sensor fusion. It's a very impressive airplane.

I really can't talk much more or this will quickly become classified.

 

[Virtus_Probi]

Originally Posted by Mr Nice
ZERO possibility the government will abandon the F-35.
If they did..... what *new* aircraft would take its role ?

The military could probably get 737 MAX 8s cheap now

 

[Mr Nice]

Virtus_Probi,

The 737 MAX is an excellent airframe to install pylons for the JDAM bombs and .50 Caliber Gatling guns...

Have the USAF patrolling the Persian Gulf 24/7/365 for any troublemakers.

And NO, I'm not kidding.

 

[PimTac]

It's hard to not get p-word on this subject but the government has a long history of the inability to spend money wisely. Good military ideas and projects get way over budget.

A good example is the current fiasco with the new electro-magnet launch systems for the new super carriers. The idea sounds great, less moving parts, etc but in actual use it is almost a bust and not ready for prime time. The Gerald Ford has this system and the litany of troubles is long. I understand the remaining carriers might be fitted with the proven steam catapults going forward.

On the other hand if we don't venture into new areas and technology, someone else will.