F150 towing 10,000 pounds video

[billt460]

Not to mention, "quick charging" diminishes battery life overall.

Very true, and it isn't mentioned enough. Also, something that is very often overlooked is the amount of charging, and how it also decreases range and battery life.

It is hard on these batteries to 100% fully charge them, and to constantly keep topping them off to a full charge. It is also hard on EV batteries to run them down to a very low charge.

Most everyone agrees that it is ideal to achieve the longest battery life, by keeping the battery charge level between 20% and 80% as much as possible.

That pretty much eliminates 40% of your advertised range...... Assuming that it is accurate as displayed. Most dashboard advertised ranges are optimistic, and drop off rapidly in the first 50 miles or so. (As many of these posted videos show).

Get these EV's up in years and mileage, and a battery replacement can easily cost more than the vehicle itself is worth. Which pretty much scraps out the vehicle when the battery gives out. Yes, battery technology is improving.

There is talk of, "million mile batteries". But thus far it's just talk. So all of this has to be factored in to a EV purchase. Even more so with a EV truck that the buyer intends to do any serious towing with.

 

[demarpaint]

Very true, and it isn't mentioned enough. Also, something that is very often overlooked is the amount of charging, and how it also decreases range and battery life.

It is hard on these batteries to 100% fully charge them, and to constantly keep topping them off to a full charge. It is also hard on EV batteries to run them down to a very low charge.

Most everyone agrees that it is ideal to achieve the longest battery life, by keeping the battery charge level between 20% and 80% as much as possible.

That pretty much eliminates 40% of your advertised range...... Assuming that it is accurate as displayed. Most dashboard advertised ranges are optimistic, and drop off rapidly in the first 50 miles or so. (As many of these posted videos show).

Get these EV's up in years and mileage, and a battery replacement can easily cost more than the vehicle itself is worth. Which pretty much scraps out the vehicle when the battery gives out. Yes, battery technology is improving.

There is talk of, "million mile batteries". But thus far it's just talk. So all of this has to be factored in to a EV purchase. Even more so with a EV truck that the buyer intends to do any serious towing with.

That 20%-80% always bothered me. I guess I'm old, in fact I know I'm old, but I don't want to hear that charging fast or to 100% is going to reduce battery life. Which IIRC is a fact! That's like going on a road trip and filling my tank to slightly above 3/4, or fill it knowing I'm hurting my car over the long haul. That doesn't cut it for me. I don't like the fact that my cell battery is considered by Apple trash when battery life gets to 80%. Why not call 80% ZERO, or close to it? Sorry battery powered cars don't cut if for me, even for local driving.

Another thing is as they rebuild the grid to handle the green new deal there will be more substations and high intensity power lines. Doesn't that pose health risks to people living near them? You don't hear much about that. I really don't think the EV is as green, healthy, or environmentally friendly as people pretend it to be.

The EV is still in its infancy, it has decades to go and a lot of bugs to iron out. JMO

 

[Jetronic]

Back in the early Nineties, I operated a concrete paver, relaying concrete pavement on on of those bad girls. Know the twin sister well. Use to drive from Evanston to Salt Lake City on weekends, mostly all down hill, That would be a perfect trip for an electric truck, coming back up to the twins sisters from Salt Lake City would not .

Going downhill with a full battery is the opposite of perfect, you'd want enough battery capacity to store all the potential energy going down (which is about the same as you need going back up, ignoring conversion losses and aerodynamic losses)

 

[billt460]

As far as I'm concerned, the jury isn't still "out" on EV's...... They haven't even been selected yet.

 

[IndyIan]

Time will tell. IIRC someone mentioned the car in question is tow rated for 2K lbs. I have a feeling that trailer exceeded that.

It was around 6000lbs.... And with a well setup hitch, towed it as well as any vehicle.
Manufacturer tow ratings seem to be for warranty purposes only. GVWR, axle ratings, and installed receiver and hitch equipment are what the law and transportation enforcement officers are interested in.
Every day you'll see lots of 1 axle unbraked trailers that are rated for 3000lbs or less that exceed the manufacturers unbraked tow ratings, that are perfectly legal to tow, with a pickup or car.

 

[demarpaint]

It was around 6000lbs.... And with a well setup hitch, towed it as well as any vehicle.
Manufacturer tow ratings seem to be for warranty purposes only. GVWR, axle ratings, and installed receiver and hitch equipment are what the law and transportation enforcement officers are interested in.
Every day you'll see lots of 1 axle unbraked trailers that are rated for 3000lbs or less that exceed the manufacturers unbraked tow ratings, that are perfectly legal to tow, with a pickup or car.

I see it all the time here. 6K trailer towed behind a Tesla, I'd be interested in seeing how the suspension holds up over the long term. My point is there are much better tools for the job, that's all, especially for someone who tows a lot.

 

[Torrid]

No disrespect but it sounds like you want to rule the world

Determine what is wasteful in your eyes?
Clearly you don’t drive a nice smooth riding big SUV and prefer a rough riding compact car the size of a mouse.

BTW taxing an over burdened electric grid is wasteful to me but I don’t hold it against others. It’s also wasteful and dangerous having EVs on the road with ungodly fast acceleration times and speed capability’s commonly discussed as a positive in these forums. Completely wasteful designing in that amount of power.

I guess it’s wasteful to live in a home larger than 2000 sq ft too?
Which btw (no politics) the people in power and public personalities go home to the wasteful mansions glorified in the media.

The nice part about this country I love is I am a free individual and can ignore a lifestyle someone else thinks should be different.

No not at all. I'm just surprised how many like to waste money. It's their decision. I'm just saying after owning a truck for 5 years it really doesn't matter if it's powered by fairy farts, I won't drive it. I had great intentions having a truck, picking up what I wanted, when I wanted without waiting on delivery. That probably benefited me once a year, but the majority of the time I was by myself commuting back and forth to work 40-300 miles a day, depending on where I was called to. I really work to much to use the truck for fun often either. I will say on the range argument with a 36 gallon tank it was stellar when I could maintain highway speed in the nice months netting around 21mpg.

Yeah, my cars ride so rough... Trust me I know there's rough riding cheap compacts, but that's why you don't buy the cheap ones with inferior suspension. Believe it or not there are premium options in the smaller car segments and small car doesn't have to mean bad, but there was a time when most were for sure.

I'm all for freedom, I'm just saying I agree with those that think EV trucks suck for towing. To use it as an actual truck on a longer trip, it will be a worse experience than and ICE truck, no doubt. Don't use it as a truck and it's still half as efficient as a small car and take up more of the road than necessary. I don't prescribe to any idea that tells someone what to do and I've been very open about it, I'm just impressed on how some enjoy lighting money on fire. I find the idea of the Hummer EV more offensively stupid to common sense than even the waste of space H2. At least the H1 had an initial purpose of being a military vehicle and only later became a road vehicle. Boy, did those suck to drive though. It almost seems like they were designed more for open spaces and rough terrain instead of the Whole Foods parking lot.

As I said, people are free to purchase what they want, it's just apparent to me that people are a lot more proficient at buying what they want than buying what would actually be best for their situation. We all do the same though, I just value great handling fun small cars that happen to be efficient in the process of that. There's even more efficient less powerful cars but they don't interest me, so I still choose what I want over what would be most efficient too.

 

[E365]

As far as I'm concerned, the jury isn't still "out" on EV's...... They haven't even been selected yet.

Won’t matter. The auto manufacturers will make more money off you by selling EVs, so they will become the norm. Simple Capitalism.

Source: Ford

 

[demarpaint]

Won’t matter. The auto manufacturers will make more money off you by selling EVs, so they will become the norm. Simple Capitalism.

Source: Ford
View attachment 155103

I have no doubt this is true, however lets see how well Ford actually does. Their track record lately is not that impressive, and their stock price backs that up.

 

[Torrid]

That 20%-80% always bothered me. I guess I'm old, in fact I know I'm old, but I don't want to hear that charging fast or to 100% is going to reduce battery life. Which IIRC is a fact! That's like going on a road trip and filling my tank to slightly above 3/4, or fill it knowing I'm hurting my car over the long haul. That doesn't cut it for me. I don't like the fact that my cell battery is considered by Apple trash when battery life gets to 80%. Why not call 80% ZERO, or close to it? Sorry battery powered cars don't cut if for me, even for local driving.

Another thing is as they rebuild the grid to handle the green new deal there will be more substations and high intensity power lines. Doesn't that pose health risks to people living near them? You don't hear much about that. I really don't think the EV is as green, healthy, or environmentally friendly as people pretend it to be.

The EV is still in its infancy, it has decades to go and a lot of bugs to iron out. JMO

Yep, in almost all cases full charging constantly can and likely will cause battery wear. I agree with a lot of what you said. It's taken a bit of retuning my use. I think it's why I like the LFP cobalt free batteries. They have less shift in voltage from low to empty so they recommend charging to full more often because of how the battery management works to display a percentage of charge since they have less voltage shift, and they really don't see much if any additional wear from being fully charged because of this. That's fine for home charging since it's slower anyway so fully charging isn't as much of a concern overnight. Sitting at a charger on a trip I'd rather bang my head on a wall. It would take much longer to go 80%-100% than 20%-80%.

It's really hard to listen to those rally on about being better for the environment with EVs because it is fully dependent on how the power is generated. It is cleaner even with a dirty source, but by how much is a matter of stupid charts and BS that is hard to explain to the average user and if it's that hard to digest anyway, the end user is going to tune out and not care anyway. The only two reasons I can see to buy EV and why we bought is driving experience and cost to operate. If it's the driving experience you want and you have relatively cheap power in your area and that happens to fit your driving needs buy it, it's a great drive. If it doesn't or that feel isn't for you, that's fine with me. As a very odd car enthusiast that has never locked into one brand or style of car really, I'm always looking for a different experience. If I had the money to support the habit and room for 20 different driving experiences I'd have a very odd selection of cars. I've selected the cars I have now because they have been the best Swiss Army knifes for my usage these days.

Everything gets better as tech improves. The only thing I really don't like about advancements with ICE vehicles is the weird lengths manufacturers have went to get more efficiency. Stop start no matter how well implemented, except maybe for hybrids just sucks. Emissions standards have nearly ruined new diesel vehicles in the US. Sure, they're now cleaner out of the tailpipe which is definitely not a bad thing, but the complexity of these new systems make them less reliable.

I have no doubt this is true, however lets see how well Ford actually does. Their track record lately is not that impressive, and their stock price backs that up.

Yep, they've got to make them reliable enough that people will actually buy one and that's not been good with their EVs so far at least as the Lightning is concerned. After my experience with their products I agree with the old saying that the logo shows that they circled the problem.

 

[alarmguy]

No not at all. I'm just surprised how many like to waste money. It's their decision. I'm just saying after owning a truck for 5 years it really doesn't matter if it's powered by fairy farts, I won't drive it. I had great intentions having a truck, picking up what I wanted, when I wanted without waiting on

That is my point in your statement. You call it wasting money, instead of saying like I did in this very section to a staff member here who just bought a hybrid for over 80k
I cant see it but we all spend money on what makes us happy and comfortable.
Some could call buying any luxury in life wasting money, including a nice big home. That is my only point.. I generally enjoy our conversations.

 

[Torrid]

That is my point in your statement. You call it wasting money, instead of saying like I did in this very section to a staff member here who just bought a hybrid for over 80k
I cant see it but we all spend money on what makes us happy and comfortable.
Some could call buying any luxury in life wasting money, including a nice big home. That is my only point.. I generally enjoy our conversations.

I'm sorry if it came off any way other than that, it's all I was trying to say. I think the most honest way to say it is that I don't value that experience for the cost of admission. I should probably add that one knock against trucks that I'm not sure I've ever mentioned here as a predominantly performance driving enthusiast is the lack of that style of driving experience. Sure, there are fast trucks and they can be fun. I even wanted the 450hp F150 Limited at one time, but they just don't corner like a small performance car, so I just get bored driving them. The other is just the size. With older infrastructure, trucks keep getting bigger and they don't fit in a lot of parking spots in large old cities. Even SUVs in almost all cases aren't nearly as big, though you don't see as many Suburbans and Expeditions these days.

I'm still shocked at how genuinely large this truck is. The first time I got in the GTI I thought my butt was touching the ground.

 

[IndyIan]

I see it all the time here. 6K trailer towed behind a Tesla, I'd be interested in seeing how the suspension holds up over the long term. My point is there are much better tools for the job, that's all, especially for someone who tows a lot.

Well, if you started with a blank sheet design, for the ideal on road rv towing vehicle, I don't think you would come up with a current pickup truck.
If you take away "off road capability" as a requirement, then a low C of G is prefered, and almost no vehicle has a lower C of G that the Tesla S and 3. It seems backwards to start with a vehicle with low on road performance capabilities(due to high C of G, high weight, solid rear axle) then just make it heavy duty enough that it keeps most of its low performance envelope while towing?
As an all round vehicle, a solid rear axle pickup has been developed to do a lot of things pretty well, and be pretty durable. I don't think there's any technical reason that a Tesla can't be equally as durable while towing as well, or even better than a pickup? For appropriately sized trailers.

 

[demarpaint]

Well, if you started with a blank sheet design, for the ideal on road rv towing vehicle, I don't think you would come up with a current pickup truck.
If you take away "off road capability" as a requirement, then a low C of G is prefered, and almost no vehicle has a lower C of G that the Tesla S and 3. It seems backwards to start with a vehicle with low on road performance capabilities(due to high C of G, high weight, solid rear axle) then just make it heavy duty enough that it keeps most of its low performance envelope while towing?
As an all round vehicle, a solid rear axle pickup has been developed to do a lot of things pretty well, and be pretty durable. I don't think there's any technical reason that a Tesla can't be equally as durable while towing as well, or even better than a pickup? For appropriately sized trailers.

I'm talking about that Tesla towing the trailer in the opener of this thread. Starting from a blank sheet is another story, as you pointed out. I seriously doubt that car was built or rated for towing a 6K trailer. Can it do it? According to the video yes, I believe it too. IIRC someone mentioned a 2,000 tow rating, that's the point I'm trying to make, if Tesla rated it to tow 6K pounds they'd rate it at that. I won't go into how far it can be driven before stopping for charges or any of that. Having said that people do a lot of things they aren't supposed to with their vehicles, I see it all the time living on densely populated L.I.

 

[Torrid]

I'm talking about that Tesla towing the trailer in the opener of this thread. Starting from a blank sheet is another story, as you pointed out. I seriously doubt that car was built or rated for towing a 6K trailer. Can it do it? According to the video yes, I believe it too. IIRC someone mentioned a 2,000 tow rating, that's the point I'm trying to make, if Tesla rated it to tow 6K pounds they'd rate it at that. I won't go into how far it can be driven before stopping for charges or any of that. Having said that people do a lot of things they aren't supposed to with their vehicles, I see it all the time living on densely populated L.I.

Yes, the. car is published to be rated for 2,200lbs. 6,000 is beyond its rated limit. Not recommended even if it can do it. Remember for those that aren't aware tow rating isn't really about power, it's what the chassis is rated to handle.

 

[demarpaint]

Yes, the. car is published to be rated for 2,200lbs. 6,000 is beyond its rated limit. Not recommended even if it can do it. Remember for those that aren't aware tow rating isn't really about power, it's what the chassis is rated to handle.

I agree 100%. I'll just add brakes, and suspension along with chassis. There's no doubt the Tesla in question has the power, it's the other components that are questionable towing close to 3X it's rated capacity. I've seen boats in excess of 8-10K pounds on trailers with no brakes dragged behind a F150 with a 300 I6. It did the job. Stopping left a lot to the imagination though. Some people think a Class III or IV hitch is all you need. lol

 

[IndyIan]

Yes, the. car is published to be rated for 2,200lbs. 6,000 is beyond its rated limit. Not recommended even if it can do it. Remember for those that aren't aware tow rating isn't really about power, it's what the chassis is rated to handle.

I think the only thing a Model 3 might fail in the SAE J2807 towing test, even pulling 6k lbs is cooling capacity of some component in the drive train going up the Davis Dam road? Battery perhaps? Interestingly there is no long downhill grade braking test in the SAE J2807 towing test, which the Tesla would do quite well at!
I think most vehicles here have a low tow rating because the marketing dept doesn't think a high rating will sell cars, and/or it will cannibalize sales from a more expensive SUV or truck.
Also I suppose the can am RV guys cut some holes in the Model 3 to get to enough structure to mount the heavy duty weight distribution hitch.

 

[UncleDave]

I see it all the time here. 6K trailer towed behind a Tesla, I'd be interested in seeing how the suspension holds up over the long term. My point is there are much better tools for the job, that's all, especially for someone who tows a lot.

This is a terrible idea.
Regular towing reliably wears out half tons suspension, and brakes.
It's going to chew through this car like a puppy does the Sunday morning paper if he keeps doing it.
Just because it can pull it doenst mean it can reliably stop and execute emergency maneuvers or last.

 

[demarpaint]

This is a terrible idea.
Regular towing reliably wears out half tons suspension, and brakes.
It's going to chew through this car like a puppy does the Sunday morning paper if he keeps doing it.
Just because it can pull it doenst mean it can reliably stop and execute emergency maneuvers or last.

That's the point I'm making. Can do it is one thing, doing it safely and reliably is another.

 

[UncleDave]

I think the only thing a Model 3 might fail in the SAE J2807 towing test, even pulling 6k lbs is cooling capacity of some component in the drive train going up the Davis Dam road? Battery perhaps? Interestingly there is no long downhill grade braking test in the SAE J2807 towing test, which the Tesla would do quite well at!
I think most vehicles here have a low tow rating because the marketing dept doesn't think a high rating will sell cars, and/or it will cannibalize sales from a more expensive SUV or truck.
Also I suppose the can am RV guys cut some holes in the Model 3 to get to enough structure to mount the heavy duty weight distribution hitch.

There are some braking provisions in 2807

Combination Braking Requirements​

PERFORMANCE ATTRIBUTE	PERFORMANCE METRIC	REQUIREMENT
Combination Stability	Deviation within lane	Remain within a 3.5-meter-wide (11.5 feet) lane throughout stop
Combination Stopping Distance	Stopping distance 20-0 mph for TWR ≤3,000 pounds	≤35 feet, except ≤45 feet at any TWR above the tow vehicle’s unbraked TWR
Combination Stopping Distance	Stopping distance 20-0 mph for TWR >3,000 pounds	≤80 feet
Park Brake Performance	Hold on grade	12% grade at GCWR (upward and downward)