f-35

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There was nothjng wrong with the proven f15 or f16. Neither of which were plagued with as many problems. This is now bordering on the insane. Are you serious? Fuel Trucks need respray due to fuel temps being too high?! Let's hope these teething pains come to an end soon.
 
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spasm3

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While expensive, the f-22 has not had the delays problems. I have to wonder about making a jet that is all things to all branches, yet does none of them well.
 
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Originally Posted By: wemay
There was nothjng wrong with the proven f15 or f16. Neither of which were plagued with as many problems. This is now bordering on the insane. Are you serious? Fuel Trucks need respray due to fuel temps being too high?! Let's hope these teething pains come to an end soon.
Yeah, it's well past insane at this point. Non-stealthy aircraft won't be able to survive given the kinds of air defense systems that are coming online these days, and pilots won't be able to carry out the missions necessary in the near future without good information integration. The promise of the F-35 (and the F-22) is to deliver those capabilities. To be completely honest, I hope we never find out whether it was worth the price. For what it's worth, there's always one upshot to spending on cutting-edge defense technology: it really does trickle down, more or less. The kinds of expertise and technologies it generates are a boon to the private sector. A lot of the money also makes its way to universities for basic scientific research, where it funds graduate degrees for the best and brightest students. It's not remotely as good as a space program, but at least it slightly mitigates the pain.
 
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Originally Posted By: spasm3
While expensive, the f-22 has not had the delays problems. I have to wonder about making a jet that is all things to all branches, yet does none of them well.
The F22 had plenty of development problems, including pilots passing out because of persistent problems with the oxygen system. And it was panned for being far too costly. The M1 tank initially didn't work in sandy conditions because the sand kept clogging intake filters. Every major weapons system has issues during rollout: that's why the process exists. And if the media had its way, every program would be canceled because of these problems. Fourth generation aircraft like the F15 and F16 have their place, but on their own would have a very, very short lifespan against an opponent with fifth generation aircraft.
 
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While I agree with the above there are many in this country that don't care. They only look at the money going out, not the benefits it can bring - exactly like the space program. If anything this should serve as a lesson to those engineers coming out of the pipe, keep it simple stupid. Technology is great but when it fails what are you going to do.
 
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Originally Posted By: Danh
The F22 had plenty of development problems, including pilots passing out because of persistent problems with the oxygen system. And it was panned for being far too costly. The M1 tank initially didn't work in sandy conditions because the sand kept clogging intake filters. Every major weapons system has issues during rollout: that's why the process exists. And if the media had its way, every program would be canceled because of these problems.
Don't you think it has been worse for the F-35? I'm no expert but I feel like anything that was this problematic and costly in the past has been cancelled.
 
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Isn't that the most expensive fighter jet ever? They are not scrapping it altogether maybe because it might cost more to scrap than build.
 

Astro14

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Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: Danh
The F22 had plenty of development problems, including pilots passing out because of persistent problems with the oxygen system. And it was panned for being far too costly. The M1 tank initially didn't work in sandy conditions because the sand kept clogging intake filters. Every major weapons system has issues during rollout: that's why the process exists. And if the media had its way, every program would be canceled because of these problems.
Don't you think it has been worse for the F-35? I'm no expert but I feel like anything that was this problematic and costly in the past has been cancelled.
No, the F-22 took longer to develop. And the "proven" F-15s and F-16s had lots of teething problems. Engine failures on the F100s in the F-16s caused a lot of crashes in the early days... All airplanes have teething problems. You would be surprised. The F-35 is still cheaper (and was always intended to be) than the F-22. If you want to talk truly expensive airplanes, look at the B-2...
 
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The future of warfare is drones, not uber expensive stealth aircraft. We should be putting a lot more of our resources in drone research programs. Imagine in World War 3, China manufactures drones by the tens of thousands, trains a bunch of 16 year old video game player kids to fly them remotely. Sure air defenses can stop some of the drones, but not all of them. THIS is the future that we need to be concerned with.
 
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Originally Posted By: kozanoglu
Isn't that the most expensive fighter jet ever? They are not scrapping it altogether maybe because it might cost more to scrap than build.
That's a favorite media line. While it's true it may be "the most expensive weapons system ever", that's mostly because the expected production volume is in the thousands, and the cost of previous systems isn't inflation-adjusted. And we should always remember the notion that: "Nothing's more expensive than the second-best airforce."
 
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Originally Posted By: Danh
Originally Posted By: kozanoglu
Isn't that the most expensive fighter jet ever? They are not scrapping it altogether maybe because it might cost more to scrap than build.
That's a favorite media line. While it's true it may be "the most expensive weapons system ever", that's mostly because the expected production volume is in the thousands, and the cost of previous systems isn't inflation-adjusted. And we should always remember the notion that: "Nothing's more expensive than the second-best airforce."
Some countries are already canceling their plans to buy them, not a good news. Who is going to buy them? The U.S. Air Force ? In thousands? With the current budget deficit and shutdowns? I hope it does not die in its infancy but a struggle awaits the plane.
 
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I just made a bunch of posts in the quick reply box and had to delete them because of the for official use only and possibly classified info that some idiot might think that I've let slip. But in a nutshell, the problem with the F-35 that I've personally encountered was with a component of a mid-term upgrade candidate engine by Rolls Royce that had design shapes and tolerances that were impossible to mass produce with current technology.. and the technology I had was state of the art electrochemical machining. If that's indicative of anything else with the program, it's this: the Pentagon setting each design bar too high for this jack of all trades airplane, which in essence leads to the proper R&D time being put in AFTER the airplane has entered service.
 

Astro14

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Originally Posted By: bubbatime
The future of warfare is drones, not uber expensive stealth aircraft. We should be putting a lot more of our resources in drone research programs. Imagine in World War 3, China manufactures drones by the tens of thousands, trains a bunch of 16 year old video game player kids to fly them remotely. Sure air defenses can stop some of the drones, but not all of them. THIS is the future that we need to be concerned with.
Yes....and no... They fly them remotely. We kill the link. The drones are no threat. Drones attack the US? They wouldn't have the range, unless they're big, in which case, they don't have thousands, and we have the F-22 for defense of the US. On the other side of the Pacific, China's robust air defenses are no match for the stealthy F-35s flying from carriers. Those F-35s are teamed up with stealthy, autonomous drones like the X-47B.... The future of air warfare has a drone element in it...like the future of police work has robots in it...but the robot isn't about to replace the patrol car, or beat cop...not yet... There is no drone that can go air to air. They are all built for air to ground. And all except a few are slow, non-stealthy, cheap airplanes. Add range, speed, payload, and they become very expensive to build...you're building a manned airplane without the man, so you don't save much...
 
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Maybe we should wait for the Chinese copy of the F-35 to come out and just buy that. You know they're probably flogging their cyber warfare division to death trying to steal design data so they can clone it.
 
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Originally Posted By: Astro14
There is no drone that can go air to air. They are all built for air to ground. And all except a few are slow, non-stealthy, cheap airplanes. Add range, speed, payload, and they become very expensive to build...you're building a manned airplane without the man, so you don't save much...
What about a cruise missile type drone with an air to air missile or two on it? Then send the missile itself. It seems the Russians and Indians are already developing these with a reusable version of their BrahMos http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BrahMos It does Mach 3 and they are working on a dedicated air strike scram jet version that does Mach 7... I would really hope the Air Force is spending 2 or 3 F35's a year to integrate the basic tech for something similar.
 
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Originally Posted By: LoneRanger
Maybe we should wait for the Chinese copy of the F-35 to come out and just buy that. You know they're probably flogging their cyber warfare division to death trying to steal design data so they can clone it.
personally I think the Chinese are on the wrong track trying to copy our designs. our designs work because we have the advanced materials and manufacturing infrastructure to make them. Their aerospace industry capabilities are, ahem, a little more 'rugged'. I'll start worrying about their 4+ generation jets once they stop having to buy their engines from the Russians. Their metallurgical prowess for jet turbines is abysmally poor, at least according to the intel we find on the WWW.
 
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Here is the problem with the F-35. Somebody got the bright idea that it would save money and take less time, if they built and acquired the aircraft concurrently with testing the aircraft. The result was a disaster. The services had already bought aircraft and had them sitting on the flight line before testing had been done to see if bombs could be dropped, or missiles fired safely. This concurrent building, acquiring, and testing caused so many problems, that an entire new leadership was brought to the program. The new program leader called the program "acquisition malpractice", and has been trying to save the program. This fuel temperature problem is just another example of what can happen if an aircraft is put into service before testing is complete. This is also the reason for the huge cost over runs.
 
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