Extended Drain under Warranty - How are they going to know?

Messages
1,251
Location
Austin, TX
I am just curious, how many of you do extended drain on M1 EP or Amsoil while the car is under warranty? If something goes south, is the dealer going to ask you to produce all your oil change receipts to prove that you have followed their OCI?
 
Messages
11,284
Location
Spring HIll
Yes, they will. And they will send your oil off for analysis. BUT, they have to show that the failure ISN'T the oil's fault. This is why you should get a UOA in this situation from a 3rd party.
 
Messages
47,789
Location
Everson WA - Pacific NW USA
The manufacturer rep will ask if they think they can pawn off an engine related failure - in some ways, rightly so - if the engine was sludged, for example. It's unlikely you would ever be in this position, but I always recommend either staying within the MAX car recommended OCI or, indeed, only extending beyond with a UOA. JUST to avoid the fight (or lying)!
 

Jonny Z

Thread starter
Messages
1,251
Location
Austin, TX
The two things that are keeping me from going ED are 1) Got 4.5 years of warranty left on my ride (Toyota Extra Mile) 2) I *enjoy* changing oil.
 
Messages
2,698
Location
Silicon Valley
Warranty or not, new or used, everyone would be well advised to keep receipts for oil changes (and other work) for the the life of the car. They might come in handy down the road when you need to prove something to the manufacturer.
 
Messages
2,698
Location
Silicon Valley
Start keeping them as real proof that the manufacturer will accept. They will fight you tooth and nail. Pop into the library and read Consumer Reports August 2005 issue p. 49 about sludge-prone models.
 
Messages
2,440
Location
snowblind in TX
We went through this at the dealership. It mystifies me how someone burns $45K on a car and neglects it. You will be required to have receipts of oil changes, in lieu of that, dated receipts of purchase of oil and filters. Safest, if not most convenient, is to have the dealership do the services while in warranty to leave no wiggle room in case of a problem. I know it tears up some of you, but the manufacturer sets the warranty rules.
 
Messages
5,785
Location
Dixie
i recommend an annual oil analysis if you want to run extended drains while under warranty. oil analysis is considered legal proof that the oil is still servicable. only abnormal contamination from coolant, fuel, dirt and,or or a mechanical defect will cause catastrophic failure of a low mileage engine.... Tooslick
 
Messages
23,887
Location
CA
After the recently visit by GM engineer Allen Cline here on BITOG, the effectiveness of an UOA has been questioned.
quote:
Keep in mind that a commercial oil sample may very well miss the reason that the oil is due for a change depending on exactly what is analyzed, how the sample was taken, etc. We found, for example, that it was nearly impossible to get accurate readings of water, fuel, coolant, etc.. contamination unless the oil sample was taken from oil circulating thru the system. Vehicles used for testing were set up with "taps" that would allow oil to be drained from the main oil gallery after (purging the oil thru the tap) while the engine was running. Otherwise, taking a sample from the drain oil is pointless in many cases as the contaminants stratify in the drain oil and the sample analysis will then not detect the contaminate depending on where the sample came from. We would usually put a 1/8 line tee'd from the oil pressure switch port to an underhood area. While the engine was still running we could put the 1/8 tube in the dipstick, flush oil thru the sampling port until we were getting representative oil from the system and THEN take the sample immediately from the running engine system so that any contaminates would be stirred up and circulating.
Thus, an engineer sent out by the vehicle's manufacturer could EASILY question the validity of the oil sample taken by the owner and reviewed by a 3rd Party Lab, since in the event of an engine failure, the engine is probably inoperable. In addition, the inexpensive oil analysis widely used on this site does NOT detect the ZDDP concentration in the oil, which from an OEM standpoint is a more accurate way of determining oil life. Thus, a $30 oil analysis may not satisfy an OEM engineer that the oil was suitable for continued use. My [poof] is on. Michael
 
Messages
418
Location
Ohio
What do you mean they dont include zddp concentration? OAI does and I am pretty sure many others do. I dont see how ZDDP levels are an indicator of oil life as most oils are chock full of zddp?
 
Messages
418
Location
Ohio
Oh also, how do they know the samples that you have sent off recently or in the past, showing that the engine and your oil brand show that it has lasted 8K miles in the past, was not in fact taken with a "T" sampling device that is plumbed to the oil pressure sensor?
 
Messages
23,887
Location
CA
quote:
Originally posted by 2003TRD: What do you mean they dont include zddp concentration? OAI does and I am pretty sure many others do. I dont see how ZDDP levels are an indicator of oil life as most oils are chock full of zddp?
It shows the amount of ZDDP in the oil, but does NOT show the CONCENTRATION of the ZDDP. MW
 
Messages
23,887
Location
CA
quote:
Originally posted by 2003TRD: Oh also, how do they know the samples that you have sent off recently or in the past, showing that the engine and your oil brand show that it has lasted 8K miles in the past, was not in fact taken with a "T" sampling device that is plumbed to the oil pressure sensor?
First, few people know that have a "T" sampling sampling device plumbed to the oil pressure sensor is the ideal way to take a sample. Second, I'm referring to the sample collected at the time that the engine failed. MW
 
Messages
418
Location
Ohio
doesnt the amount and the concentration corealate. I dont see how they cant Wouldnt a pattern of say 6-10 UOA that have all made it to, say 8K miles or so, show that the engine and oil hold up to the demand on a routine basis?
 
Messages
23,887
Location
CA
2003TRD, I'm not sure if this is the right example, but say you have 4oz of Substance A mixed in 12 ounces of Substance B to form Solution A. Then, you have 4oz of Substance A mixed with 20 ounces of Substance B to form Solution B. Wouldn't a lab test show that both solution A and solution B have 4 ounces of Substance A? However, if the engineer is not satisfied with those 6-10UOAs in predicting oil life, then how would they use those as a basis that the oil has been able to make it to 8K. Michael
 
Real world, the dealerships do not want to replace anything under warranty if they feel there is a possibility that they don't have to. Also, few engines would not make it through an ordinary warranty period unless abused and neglected. JMO
 
Messages
9,427
Location
Pensacola & Vero Beach FL
quote:
Originally posted by punisher: {snip} I know it tears up some of you, but the manufacturer sets the warranty rules.
No, not really. They only get to set the rules within the tight constraints of the Moss-Magnuson Warranty Act. Anything that they try to impose on you, or any advantage they try to take, that contradicts the MMWA simply won't hold water if push comes to shove (that is, you end up in court). Of course, I'm also a big believer that the best way to win a fight is to avoid it in the first place (on acceptable terms, naturally). The internet is full of stuff on Moss-Magnuson. If you're getting pushed around, you need a lawyer. I find equally amazing people's unwillingness to avail themselves of the courts when they're getting screwed over a $45k car.
 
Messages
9,427
Location
Pensacola & Vero Beach FL
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Wan: After the recently visit by GM engineer Allen Cline here on BITOG, the effectiveness of an UOA has been questioned.
quote:
Keep in mind that a commercial oil sample may very well miss the reason that the oil is due for a change depending on exactly what is analyzed, how the sample was taken, etc. We found, for example, that it was nearly impossible to get accurate readings of water, fuel, coolant, etc.. contamination unless the oil sample was taken from oil circulating thru the system. Vehicles used for testing were set up with "taps" that would allow oil to be drained from the main oil gallery after (purging the oil thru the tap) while the engine was running. Otherwise, taking a sample from the drain oil is pointless in many cases as the contaminants stratify in the drain oil and the sample analysis will then not detect the contaminate depending on where the sample came from. We would usually put a 1/8 line tee'd from the oil pressure switch port to an underhood area. While the engine was still running we could put the 1/8 tube in the dipstick, flush oil thru the sampling port until we were getting representative oil from the system and THEN take the sample immediately from the running engine system so that any contaminates would be stirred up and circulating.
Thus, an engineer sent out by the vehicle's manufacturer could EASILY question the validity of the oil sample taken by the owner and reviewed by a 3rd Party Lab, since in the event of an engine failure, the engine is probably inoperable. In addition, the inexpensive oil analysis widely used on this site does NOT detect the ZDDP concentration in the oil, which from an OEM standpoint is a more accurate way of determining oil life. Thus, a $30 oil analysis may not satisfy an OEM engineer that the oil was suitable for continued use. My [poof] is on. Michael

Michael: I'm a little perplexed by the apparent focus on ZDDP level. Seems odd, especially since with the change to the SM standard, there's considerably less of the stuff in the oil in the first place. Second, implicit in your position is an assumption that used oil analysis promises conclusive proof of the condition of the engine and oil at the time it was drawn. Clearly, it does not. Many uncontrolled variables may impact upon the reliability of any given oil sample. This does not, however, suggest that even inexpensive tests are worthless. It's not an all or nothing thing. You have to look at the particular sample, the conditions under which it was drawn, and the lab that tested it, before you can decide how much weight to accord the particular results. I would never let an auto mfr tell me a UOA was worthless (unless it was obviously bad).
 
Messages
418
Location
Ohio
well the UOA show parts per million so its not an issue whether substance A is only 10% or 20% or whatever %. because it takes an increase in the amount of additive to make the same ppm whether its 6oz or 60oz
 
Top