"Experts" On this Board

[Bill in Utah]

Originally Posted By: MBCLK


GIVEN: FRAM Filters are known to have end caps! We all agree here, right? It is 100% true that FRAM oil filters have paper/cardboard end caps. There are tons of pictures on this board to prove this fact.

CONCLUSION: If a FRAM oil filter has a paper end cap then it is INFERIOR to any oil filter that has a metal end cap because of the function that an end cap serves. Obviously, this is an analogy based on the fact that all other parts of an oil filter are the same.


FACT: There are more vehicles that have Fram filters on them that any other brand and I'm still waiting to see all the dead vehicles on the side of the road or needing engines replaced.

FACT: Many here (incl me) have gone HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of miles using only Frams for DECADES with not a SINGLE issue. I've cut open EVERY ONE and NEVER seen the "terrible" end caps come apart.

Guess I'm just the lucky one.

And my family members.

And all those other MILLIONS of people...

Too bad Utah does not have a lottery.... I'd be richer than Bill Gates..

Bill

PS: I don't use too many Frams today as there are better deals out there. But I would not have a heart attack like others here if I used one...

PPS: The OP of this thread is a typical post and run salesman. Sadly we have others who keep posting trying to sound "unbiased".

 

[dickwells]

Yea, Grampa smoked two packs a day until he was 98 too.

 

[Gary Allan]

Originally Posted By: Newtonville
From other discussions, there have been samples of Denso filters with no end caps, or filled in ends, just pleats folded and glued at the ends. It appears the doubled over media gives the strength to maintain shape. It seems to me in my non expert way that there is no other reason for end caps except to seal the pleats at the ends and keep them in their folded position if the media is too weak. The center tube is the main structural element. I suspect the reason there are so many steel end caps is that the machinery is in place to produce them, and it is easier to assemble media to metal caps.


..and Hamp and a number of others use the bonded end pleat accordion deal. It's obviously a more expensive process (the injection/molding of polymers and/or bonding the pleats). Why aren't they using cardboard?

As far as machinery in place. Fram was always the leader in sales ..decades..scores.. If there was some sensible advantage to doing it that way, why would all other filter manufacturers, many who came into existence with enough time to evaluate the pros and cons of end cap design, opt for the needless expense of steel ..when cardboard proved to be just as good? That is, they could have just copied the leader for superior design.

I'd also point out that all of Fram's offerings seem to lose this design feature above the lowest cost filter that they offer.


There are lots of contemporary designs that abandon the steel end cap. The Ecore is one such filter as are all the automotive cartridge filters that I've seen. None of them came into being out of seeking cost reductions.

That said, Fram filters do their appointed task

 

[labman]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Originally Posted By: Newtonville
From other discussions, there have been samples of Denso filters with no end caps, or filled in ends, just pleats folded and glued at the ends. It appears the doubled over media gives the strength to maintain shape. It seems to me in my non expert way that there is no other reason for end caps except to seal the pleats at the ends and keep them in their folded position if the media is too weak. The center tube is the main structural element. I suspect the reason there are so many steel end caps is that the machinery is in place to produce them, and it is easier to assemble media to metal caps.


..and Hamp and a number of others use the bonded end pleat accordion deal. It's obviously a more expensive process (the injection/molding of polymers and/or bonding the pleats). Why aren't they using cardboard?

As far as machinery in place. Fram was always the leader in sales ..decades..scores.. If there was some sensible advantage to doing it that way, why would all other filter manufacturers, many who came into existence with enough time to evaluate the pros and cons of end cap design, opt for the needless expense of steel ..when cardboard proved to be just as good? That is, they could have just copied the leader for superior design.

I'd also point out that all of Fram's offerings seem to lose this design feature above the lowest cost filter that they offer.


There are lots of contemporary designs that abandon the steel end cap. The Ecore is one such filter as are all the automotive cartridge filters that I've seen. None of them came into being out of seeking cost reductions.

That said, Fram filters do their appointed task

I forgot about the filters where each pleat is sealed instead of end caps. Kind of blows the theory that you must have steel end caps for rigidity out of the water.

While Fram has long been the market leader in filters, Purolator popularized the spin on. I don't have a clue what kind of end caps they originally used.

And yes, the lack of bad outcomes from using Frams convinces me you may as well use what you can get cheap. I see no reason to pay extra for the worst filter on the market.

 

[MBCLK]

can somebody please answer this question for me? what is the main function of an oil filter end cap? is it for decoration? does it keep the filter media in place? does it serve or assist in filtering the oil correctly? if we answer this then we might get somewhere.

 

[labman]

I think end caps are primarily to seal the ends of the media. As Newtonville remined me, there are other ways to do that. In that case, you may achieve rigidity other ways too. Something has to seal between the media and the base plate.

Champion claims their Ecore end caps add to the filtering.

 

[Pablo]

I was gonna write something simple like: The end caps are to keep the dirty oil on the outside of the filter media and clean oil on the inside.

 

[panthermike]

Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
Originally Posted By: MBCLK


GIVEN: FRAM Filters are known to have end caps! We all agree here, right? It is 100% true that FRAM oil filters have paper/cardboard end caps. There are tons of pictures on this board to prove this fact.

CONCLUSION: If a FRAM oil filter has a paper end cap then it is INFERIOR to any oil filter that has a metal end cap because of the function that an end cap serves. Obviously, this is an analogy based on the fact that all other parts of an oil filter are the same.


FACT: There are more vehicles that have Fram filters on them that any other brand and I'm still waiting to see all the dead vehicles on the side of the road or needing engines replaced.

FACT: Many here (incl me) have gone HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of miles using only Frams for DECADES with not a SINGLE issue. I've cut open EVERY ONE and NEVER seen the "terrible" end caps come apart.

Guess I'm just the lucky one.

And my family members.

And all those other MILLIONS of people...

Too bad Utah does not have a lottery.... I'd be richer than Bill Gates..

Bill

PS: I don't use too many Frams today as there are better deals out there. But I would not have a heart attack like others here if I used one...

PPS: The OP of this thread is a typical post and run salesman. Sadly we have others who keep posting trying to sound "unbiased".



I'm basically the same way. I used to use them, but there are better deals. I've also never had an issue. My brother used one for an OCI of 19K in his Accord, another one in an F150 for an 18K OCI. As you can tell, some of my family members aren't so good at keeping up on oil changes.

 

[MBCLK]

Originally Posted By: Pablo
I was gonna write something simple like: The end caps are to keep the dirty oil on the outside of the filter media and clean oil on the inside.


ok so if this statement is true then metal end caps are better than paper end caps especially with whatever amount of oil pressure exists during the filtering process

 

[ZZman]

So isn't what coolhand01 did called trolling? He hasn't backed anything up but just wanted to try and stir the pot.

 

[Mustang2008Z]

I think that I am going to do some research on all of the oil filters used for gasoline engines, not diesel, and see if I can get verifiable internet locations where the information can be found, and is accurate, not full of marketing hype or innuendo, and has been thoroughly tested by a reputable organization, an organization with no biases or at least limited amount of bias.

A good example would be Consumer's Union's Consumer Reports, of course their data cannot be published without their written consent.

Well, in the interest of learning, I shall seek more knowledge and bring back the needed information for all to see, then you guys can make up your own minds, based upon the information.

 

[ryland]

personaly I dont think that useing a fram is going to kill your engine. I've said in other posts that I had a vw beetle that had 200k on it, same motor with no rebuild and no oil filter. Take that back it had a metal screen that never trapped anything. I'm no expert but I dont think that fram is as bad as people make them out to be. Do they make the best filter on the market? No. They are just an easy target because they are a huge company. Does Mcdonalds make the best hamberger? They just fill a need. I also think that too much attention is paid to the metal vs. non metal endcaps and not enough paid to the quality of a brands anti drainback valve. Dont know for sure but you would probably see more wear from dry starts than from a little unfiltered oil recirculating.

 

[Mustang2008Z]

This is my opinion only, so everybody can jump on my statement and call me a has been. Know nothing idiot. After looking at the oil filters, both new and all used up. I come to the conclusion that the pleats give more filtering media, otherwise, every manufacturer would make their filter look like the can, so it can stand burst tests, but then, I got to thinking that burst tests mean nothing in the world of oil filtration. The used up oil filters probably were pressurized to the point that they could not keep filtering under the pressure, so the pleats collapsed. I am no expert by any means, but I think the originator of this forum has not shown any facts, or figures, nor provided any proof that validates his position. From what he has put on-line, the information is from the year 2000, and we are now in the year 2009. I think that he was just tired of seeing Fram filters put down on this site. I won't use Fram either, because I think there are better products out there such as Purolator, Wix, Napa, just to name a few....Of course he may rebut my statement at anytime, just bring out the truth, give me real facts, real information that provides substantial proof of his assertions, otherwise, his statements are without merit. I looked at ISO 4548-12, burst, etc.) That means absolutely zero, since it refers to the year 2000. There was a revision done in 2008, and that may provide better information than what he has provided so far.

 

[The_Outsider]

yea, those fram filters are real awesome. :no-no:

 

[Gary Allan]

Defects can and do happen to all filter manufacturers ...make that all manufacturers. Failures to any and all filters are rare, at least where those defects are detectably apparent. One could run without a filter for probably years and not notice it, as is quite apparent when someone doesn't change their oil over that span of time and merely keeps adding oil. It may last just as long, just not in as good a health and at the same level of utility.

There have been instances where the Fram design has showed fatigue that would not occur, at least in the same manner, in just about any other filter. Since Fram commands such a market share, it will have the most incidences of filter related failures due to various causes ..including design weaknesses and manufacturing defects.

That said, I would never buy one if alternatives were available (orange can). The design has been unchanged forever and there are far better buys. I admire the Ecore design even though it had some rough edges in its infancy. I don't buy them anymore since I find (where I need a lower cost filter) MotorCraft is a better value for the $1.xx difference ..or at least I perceive it to be.

I find the upper level Frams (apparently) well built. They tend to not give me the perception of value when compared to PureOne or Wix in the price range that they tend to fall into. I would not hesitate to use those Frams if they were cheaper. They may be worth the money that they charge for them, but I don't perceive the value over the others mentioned.

 

[SuperBusa]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Originally Posted By: SuperBusa


For instance, I tried to get flow vs. psid performance for the PureONE from Purolator, but they wouldn't say anything about the flow rate performance. Is it because they are afraid it has substandard performance? If not, why not brag about the performance it is going to help sell filters?

I would mainly be concerned with holding capacity and filtering efficiency. The PSID data is pretty much worthless in most sensible views.

Greshen K-22001 hydraulic filter

Beta10=2
Beta20=20
Beta22=75

Capacity 8gms typical

^P @ 10gpm 150 SUS fluid = 4 PSID

Would it really matter if it was 6 or 2 PSID if you were only moving 3-6gpm and never had the capacity to move 10gpm??? Would a "freer" flowing hydraulic filter make any difference? Would a "more restrictive" hydraulic filter make any difference?

That is, would you be sensible enough, when seeing the 10gpm data, to figure that your 5gpm demand won't make a difference, or would you tend to put importance upon it ..even if it would never be important in your circumstances?

If you can see what I'm saying

I hear ya, and agree that most people wouldn't know what to do with "PSID vs Flow" data. But if I knew one oil filter flowed better than another one, and filter just as well, then I'd probably use the less restrictive filter to ensure less bypass during cold starts and high RPM use. Too bad there wasn't a standardized rating for the flow restrictiveness characteristic for "those who care" like there is for the filtering performance characteristics (ie, beta ratio).

 

[SuperBusa]

Originally Posted By: MBCLK
can somebody please answer this question for me? what is the main function of an oil filter end cap? is it for decoration? does it keep the filter media in place? does it serve or assist in filtering the oil correctly? if we answer this then we might get somewhere.


That was answered way back on page 5 !! ... when you asked the 1st time.

 

[SuperBusa]

Originally Posted By: Mustang2008Z
... so it can stand burst tests, but then, I got to thinking that burst tests mean nothing in the world of oil filtration.


The burst pressure is just how much internal pressure the filter can withstand before the exterior can fails (and leaks) in some manner. Of course the manufacturer designs the can to have a "safety factor" of at least 2 and probably more near 3. In other words, if an oil system could run at say 100 psi, and the filter had a burst pressure of 300 psi, then it would have a safety factor of 3 (ie, it could take 3 times the max expected operating pressure). The filter can must also withstand pressure pulsations in the system, so having a high burst pressure ensures it can account for added stresses due to continuous pulsations during it's life.

Originally Posted By: Mustang2008Z
The used up oil filters probably were pressurized to the point that they could not keep filtering under the pressure, so the pleats collapsed.


The burst pressure has no real bearing on how much pressure the filtering media sees. The pressure difference across the filtering media is defendant on how restrictive the media is and how much flow volume is being forced past the media. You could have a filter can at 100 psi pressure and have hardly any pressure across the media.

If the filter media becomes collapsed, it usually means that the media in under designed to withstand the nominal operating PSID. It could also deteriorate with time/use and start to collapse under normal use. Also, if the bypass valve doesn't function properly then the media can experience large PSIDs in bypass conditions which could damage and collapse the media.

 

[Pablo]

So......was this Coolhand's swan song???

 

[tom slick]

He's probably sitting back laughing at us "experts"