"Experts" On this Board

Messages
5
Location
USA
I'm amazed at all the so-called "experts" on this board. If I had a nickel for every misconception stated on here, I'd be a billionaire. more pleats = better filter more filter media better than less paper end caps are garbage ...on and on and on Due to my line of work (independent research lab), I've had access to in-depth filter testing on almost all major brands -- Wix, Fram, STP, Purolator, Champ, M1, and many more. And I'm not talking about tests like those done on those hokey websites many on here reference (the ones with filters cut open and the components laid out). I'm talking the real industry tests (ISO 4548-12, burst, etc.). If you guys only knew how poorly some of your favorite brands performed you'd be shocked. Not to say there aren't people on here who have the facts much straighter than most, but even those guys are way off base many times. For those of you on here truly looking for some insight into which filters perform best, please don't pay much credence to things posted on this board, as you will be left completely misinformed and your engine will hate you for it.
 
Messages
151
Location
Los Angeles, CA
 Originally Posted By: coolhand01
I'm amazed at all the so-called "experts" on this board. If I had a nickel for every misconception stated on here, I'd be a billionaire. more pleats = better filter more filter media better than less paper end caps are garbage ...on and on and on Due to my line of work (independent research lab), I've had access to in-depth filter testing on almost all major brands -- Wix, Fram, STP, Purolator, Champ, M1, and many more. And I'm not talking about tests like those done on those hokey websites many on here reference (the ones with filters cut open and the components laid out). I'm talking the real industry tests (ISO 4548-12, burst, etc.). If you guys only knew how poorly some of your favorite brands performed you'd be shocked. Not to say there aren't people on here who have the facts much straighter than most, but even those guys are way off base many times. For those of you on here truly looking for some insight into which filters perform best, please don't pay much credence to things posted on this board, as you will be left completely misinformed and your engine will hate you for it.
Based on your work experience...then may i ask what the best oil filter is?
 
Messages
151
Location
Los Angeles, CA
 Originally Posted By: coolhand01
I'm amazed at all the so-called "experts" on this board. If I had a nickel for every misconception stated on here, I'd be a billionaire. more pleats = better filter more filter media better than less paper end caps are garbage ...on and on and on Due to my line of work (independent research lab), I've had access to in-depth filter testing on almost all major brands -- Wix, Fram, STP, Purolator, Champ, M1, and many more. And I'm not talking about tests like those done on those hokey websites many on here reference (the ones with filters cut open and the components laid out). I'm talking the real industry tests (ISO 4548-12, burst, etc.). If you guys only knew how poorly some of your favorite brands performed you'd be shocked. Not to say there aren't people on here who have the facts much straighter than most, but even those guys are way off base many times. For those of you on here truly looking for some insight into which filters perform best, please don't pay much credence to things posted on this board, as you will be left completely misinformed and your engine will hate you for it.
so are u saying that paper end caps (FRAM) just as good as metal end caps?
 
Messages
9,679
Location
Central Coast, Calif.
So what is your connection to Fram now that you are "independent"? Maybe if you posted here more often than once a year about Fram products you could enlighten us on how its least cost construction at a moderate price is superior. Trust me, if you can make a case of it being superior a group of people here will drink your kool-aid and brag about it.
 
Messages
549
Location
New Mexico, U.S.A.
 Originally Posted By: MBCLK
so are u saying that paper end caps (FRAM) just as good as metal end caps?
Laminated paper end-caps VS. metal... if neither fails, I'd say the paper jobbers are superior. I'm not against over-engineering, per se. I just hate trees.
 
Messages
4,830
Location
Kansas
 Originally Posted By: coolhand01
I'm amazed at all the so-called "experts" on this board. If I had a nickel for every misconception stated on here, I'd be a billionaire. more pleats = better filter more filter media better than less paper end caps are garbage ...on and on and on
So fewer pleats are better? And less filter media is better? And paper end caps are the way to go? I guess I was doing it all wrong.
 
Messages
3,316
Location
Bolivia
There are some valid points to his arguments. You cannot generalize as much as is often done. -Too many pleats is not good, as they close in against each other and two act as one or not at all. I've seen too many of those. -I'm not a fan of cardboard end caps, but what is important is that whatever material it is does not come unglued from the pleats and center tube, with a good seal at the valves. I've cut some where the metal cap was glued to the cardboard and separated there, allowing oil to pass between them. -Ant the 2 Frams I've cut had the cardboard mis-centered, not sealing the valves The problem for most is cutting through marketing hype and getting to the meat of the issue. The lack of complete and really comparable data makes everyone look for the most obvious probabilities of "good".
 
Messages
8,711
Location
Nothern USA
I wish I had as good of a source for info on caring for my car as I do dogs. My family has been raising puppies for service dog schools for years. Nobody has more resources or incentive to determine the best practices for caring for dogs. The net is filled with clattrap about the ingredients in dog foods and good and bad ratings based on them, but no proof Better ingredients produce healthier dogs. The common brands producing excellent results fot he service dog school always come out rated low. Now oil filters don't have labels telling what is in them. Anybody with a hacksaw and a tape measure can cut them open and measure the filter area, and more pleats don't always mean more area. I have looked, but never found much information on quality of media. It is possible less of a good media is as good. Still, when I could buy a PF 1177 for less with 3 times the media, why should I buy a PH 3950? The AC also has a threaded end bypass. Now it has been a long time since I found a PF 1177 anywhere let alone for $2. The ST 3950, with twice the media of the Fram has disappeared too. Now I find the L 10193 only has half as much media as it used to, and still the dome end bypass. I think I will try the smaller ST they now list for my truck. It may still have more media than Fram or Purolator. As good? It also has the threaded end bypass. Now if you have any objective data to back your claims, I am all ears.
 
Messages
527
Location
The American West
Well CoolHand, you have come on here with fairly big rant and yet no info on what might be "good" vs. "bad". If you are gonna give guys a hard time for doing what they can with what they have, then maybe provide some hard data to set us idiots straight. We would like to know more than anyone what is good and what is not...that's why we spend so much time talking about it on here, cutting the filters open, and doing our own "research". What widman said was right on. If there isn't an Ingredients list, so to speak, then we are going to go with what appears to be better made and make sense by the vague descriptions we do get on how they perform and how they are made. So,if you know better than us what is good and usable, then enlighten us. We are all listening and waiting to change our idiotic ways.
 
Messages
267
Location
USA
 Originally Posted By: coolhand01
more pleats = better filter more filter media better than less paper end caps are garbage
Put me on the list of dummies and earn three more nickels as I believe all three of the above are basically true. 1.more pleats, evenly placed and designed, do make a better filter. 2.more media, assuming it is the same media, is better for the same reasons as 1. 3.Actual "paper" endcaps wouldn't last long in an operating filter, and so are garbage.
 

dnewton3

Staff member
Messages
8,459
Location
Indianapolis, IN
I'm open to discussion on this issue, because I like to have hard facts and raw data to make my own decisions. I certainly don't know everything, but I do statistical quality and process control for a living. You show me data; I can make up my own mind. I have been wrong before, and will admit to being corrected by others IF YOU CONVINCE ME OF IT. But your rhetoric is no different from marketing hype at this point. In the absence of your "proof", we rely on our own observations, such as cutting upon filters, examining UOA and particle count analysis, comparing construction criteria, etc. Put up or shut up, I say. Don't drop a dime like that and exepct no one to call you on it. If you've got access to truly independent data, then lay it out for all of us to see. I for one would be greatful if you have the stuff to back it up.
 
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Messages
507
Location
St. louis
I guess I only felt that number of pleats and total area of media was only a worth looking at if the media was the same. But all the different medias with some of the premium filter medias using synthetic composition and having depth to them measuring square inches in two deminsions doesn't tell me much. So I'm with him on that but to throw the statements out there that he did, and not provide data showing the good, bad, and ugly seems remiss. Moreover I see a lot of talk on here about the superior media composistions being used by Donnelson, Perf Form and others. There are also a lot of discussions about flow rates and its importance to certain applications. So I can't agree that this forum is just a bunch of pleat counters.
 
Messages
43,722
Location
Ontario, Canada
 Originally Posted By: coolhand01
I'm amazed at all the so-called "experts" on this board. If I had a nickel for every misconception stated on here, I'd be a billionaire. more pleats = better filter more filter media better than less paper end caps are garbage ...on and on and on Due to my line of work (independent research lab), I've had access to in-depth filter testing on almost all major brands -- Wix, Fram, STP, Purolator, Champ, M1, and many more. And I'm not talking about tests like those done on those hokey websites many on here reference (the ones with filters cut open and the components laid out). I'm talking the real industry tests (ISO 4548-12, burst, etc.). If you guys only knew how poorly some of your favorite brands performed you'd be shocked. Not to say there aren't people on here who have the facts much straighter than most, but even those guys are way off base many times. For those of you on here truly looking for some insight into which filters perform best, please don't pay much credence to things posted on this board, as you will be left completely misinformed and your engine will hate you for it.
But:
 Originally Posted By: =coolhand01
I work in the FRAM marketing department and led the team that developed our new SynWash Long Life Air Filter. I frequent this board quite and bit because like most of you I am interested in vehicle maintenance, but I also enjoy candid feedback from consumers about our products. I am posting today because our SynWash filter just hit the marketplace this past week and noticed a few posts about it. Not all of the information is correct so I wanted to give everyone the details.
So, you went from the marketing department at FRAM guy to "Expert on oil filters"? I run Fleetguard and Donaldson filters, BOTH of which provide plenty of performance figures using the tests YOU CITED available in PDF's on their websites. Coming on here and calling people idiots because they feel they are doing right by their engines by trying to figure out what is the best constructed is hardly any less "hokey".... But its definitely far more rude. And let me add this: Is a person better served by performing their own investigation and exercising the oil enthusiast community as a lever to spread their findings and contrast their findings with other enthusiasts using information obtained via tear-down and data sheets from filter manufacturers? Or should we all just listen to some guy who used to work in the marketing department for FRAM who apparently now is "independent"? It is like a tech from Jiffy Lube coming on here and telling us that we are all idiots for going longer than 3,000 miles on our oil.....
 
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Messages
6,987
Location
Michigan
Think he is trying to get our goat?......not happening.....:) He is a marketing man...not a researcher or engineer.
 
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