Even the mighty Porsche DI succumbs to deposits
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If 10% does boil off, does that mean it's 10% light fraction? Maybe. It just seems like "severe hydrocrack" would be exactly that, severe.
There must be a balance struck to keep the base oil light at 2cSt but to sharply divide the lighter fractional content. I guess that's where the magic is.
There must be a balance struck to keep the base oil light at 2cSt but to sharply divide the lighter fractional content. I guess that's where the magic is.
Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
If 10% does boil off, does that mean it's 10% light fraction? Maybe. It just seems like "severe hydrocrack" would be exactly that, severe.
Distillation is a Boltzmann/Arrhenius-type process, so theoretically, under temperature, there would be a range of components that would come out. The same way that water evaporates at room temperature even though its vapourization temperature is 100degC at STP. Even oil that isn't sitting in an engine undergoes volatilization - otherwise, when you opened a bottle of motor oil, you wouldn't be able to smell it!
I think 'severe' refers to the extent of hydrogenation that occurs of the alkanes that are generated in the cracking process. The more hydrogen that can be stuck in place of sulfur and other aromatic structures on the molecules themselves, the better. It doesn't necessarily refer to a process being more selective for a certain chain length versus a 'non-severe' hydrotreating process that might be used to, for instance, produce synthetic petrol from bitumen, a fuel that is to be used for combustion, not lubrication.
Quote:
There must be a balance struck to keep the base oil light at 2cSt but to sharply divide the lighter fractional content. I guess that's where the magic is.
A process designed to manufacture base oils at 12cSt will have a distribution of components across the entire range, at higher or lower viscosities. A 100% yield of the desired component is impossible simply because of the random element of reaction kinetics.
And 'magic' it is, refiners spend crazy amounts of money acquiring the technology to generate the highest yields, and they are closely guarded trade secrets.
If 10% does boil off, does that mean it's 10% light fraction? Maybe. It just seems like "severe hydrocrack" would be exactly that, severe.
Distillation is a Boltzmann/Arrhenius-type process, so theoretically, under temperature, there would be a range of components that would come out. The same way that water evaporates at room temperature even though its vapourization temperature is 100degC at STP. Even oil that isn't sitting in an engine undergoes volatilization - otherwise, when you opened a bottle of motor oil, you wouldn't be able to smell it!
I think 'severe' refers to the extent of hydrogenation that occurs of the alkanes that are generated in the cracking process. The more hydrogen that can be stuck in place of sulfur and other aromatic structures on the molecules themselves, the better. It doesn't necessarily refer to a process being more selective for a certain chain length versus a 'non-severe' hydrotreating process that might be used to, for instance, produce synthetic petrol from bitumen, a fuel that is to be used for combustion, not lubrication.
Quote:
There must be a balance struck to keep the base oil light at 2cSt but to sharply divide the lighter fractional content. I guess that's where the magic is.
A process designed to manufacture base oils at 12cSt will have a distribution of components across the entire range, at higher or lower viscosities. A 100% yield of the desired component is impossible simply because of the random element of reaction kinetics.
And 'magic' it is, refiners spend crazy amounts of money acquiring the technology to generate the highest yields, and they are closely guarded trade secrets.
Here is another example of why waiting until a TSB has been issued to recognize a problem is foolish. This is a vw 2.0 FSI at 100k. Again kudos to RL_RS4 who has done so much work to identify this problem, educate others on it, and even design solutions to it.
wow how did that car run at all?
Originally Posted By: zoomzoom
wow how did that car run at all?
Sounds like it wasn't running too great. Btw that car ran M1 0W40 changed every 10k miles per the owner's manual. If you look at the UOAs for this engine, no oil seems to be able to go over 5k (unless of course your name is Pitzel and you only look at TBN as an indicator of oil condition and have pre-determined that anything less than 30k is too early ...oops, I said I would stay out of that ridiculous argument, my mistake).
Also, just want to make clear that I do not mean to imply that this result happened because the owner was using M1 0w40. Poor results have been seen with numerous VW 502 oils. It is a result of the design, not this particular oil. Of course some oils such as Biosyn may help with the problem, but I think it would be a mistake to say that those valves look like that because of the oil used.
wow how did that car run at all?
Sounds like it wasn't running too great. Btw that car ran M1 0W40 changed every 10k miles per the owner's manual. If you look at the UOAs for this engine, no oil seems to be able to go over 5k (unless of course your name is Pitzel and you only look at TBN as an indicator of oil condition and have pre-determined that anything less than 30k is too early ...oops, I said I would stay out of that ridiculous argument, my mistake).
Also, just want to make clear that I do not mean to imply that this result happened because the owner was using M1 0w40. Poor results have been seen with numerous VW 502 oils. It is a result of the design, not this particular oil. Of course some oils such as Biosyn may help with the problem, but I think it would be a mistake to say that those valves look like that because of the oil used.
Now, now saaber1 ... was that nice?
Originally Posted By: RI_RS4
Now, now saaber1 ... was that nice?
I know, I know, I just have too little patience.
Reminds me of a time in college when one guy kept arguing, "you know, Hitler really did some good things" and he could actually rationalize it (not from a racist perspective) and he would just keep arguing, at whatever cost, irregardless of any facts, etc. I think he enjoyed it. He was just so concerned with defending his position, and he had no concern at all for finding the truth. It just made me want to puke. I just have no patience for this type of argument I guess. You're right it's not nice and I'll just go back to staying out of it like I said I would earlier.
Now, now saaber1 ... was that nice?
I know, I know, I just have too little patience.
Reminds me of a time in college when one guy kept arguing, "you know, Hitler really did some good things" and he could actually rationalize it (not from a racist perspective) and he would just keep arguing, at whatever cost, irregardless of any facts, etc. I think he enjoyed it. He was just so concerned with defending his position, and he had no concern at all for finding the truth. It just made me want to puke. I just have no patience for this type of argument I guess. You're right it's not nice and I'll just go back to staying out of it like I said I would earlier.
Originally Posted By: saaber1
Sounds like it wasn't running too great. Btw that car ran M1 0W40 changed every 10k miles per the owner's manual. If you look at the UOAs for this engine, no oil seems to be able to go over 5k (unless of course your name is Pitzel and you only look at TBN as an indicator of oil condition and have pre-determined that anything less than 30k is too early ...oops, I said I would stay out of that ridiculous argument, my mistake).
If TBN, oxidation, and insolubles are well within limits, and there's nothing outrageous on the wear metals -- then whats the rationale, if any, to condemn an oil?
None of the UOA's you posted for the VW FSI engines supported a 30k drain -- but they all supported in the range of 10-15k, with no evidence that 'early shearing' was detrimental to the engine's operation.
And yes, I'd like to get to the truth as well. If not for the aid of the BiTOG community, then for my own selfish desire to buy one of these nice VW/Audi's for cheap (owner has written off as a lemon), fix it up, and drive it. The 'problem' is likely a multitude of factors all coming together in a small number of vehicles that are operated and maintained at certain extremes.
Sounds like it wasn't running too great. Btw that car ran M1 0W40 changed every 10k miles per the owner's manual. If you look at the UOAs for this engine, no oil seems to be able to go over 5k (unless of course your name is Pitzel and you only look at TBN as an indicator of oil condition and have pre-determined that anything less than 30k is too early ...oops, I said I would stay out of that ridiculous argument, my mistake).
If TBN, oxidation, and insolubles are well within limits, and there's nothing outrageous on the wear metals -- then whats the rationale, if any, to condemn an oil?
None of the UOA's you posted for the VW FSI engines supported a 30k drain -- but they all supported in the range of 10-15k, with no evidence that 'early shearing' was detrimental to the engine's operation.
And yes, I'd like to get to the truth as well. If not for the aid of the BiTOG community, then for my own selfish desire to buy one of these nice VW/Audi's for cheap (owner has written off as a lemon), fix it up, and drive it. The 'problem' is likely a multitude of factors all coming together in a small number of vehicles that are operated and maintained at certain extremes.
To solve this for once and all, Make an oilcatch can and possibly use a pcv that has a stiffer spring or weaker whatever that minimize the open gap and open time. Cant do much with the egr...
Another thing is the air filter and its air tube system. Is it low flowing and resrictive? I would K+N it along with oil catch can and see what happens...... those poor DI engines.
ps what about reversion since Im assuming it has a common plenum...
Another thing is the air filter and its air tube system. Is it low flowing and resrictive? I would K+N it along with oil catch can and see what happens...... those poor DI engines.
ps what about reversion since Im assuming it has a common plenum...
Ok. I have an issue. My female friend has an '06 GLI and I was called over to add oil. It was 3q low, changed in Mar. Probally only 4-5k on the oil. It's going in for a 40k service, out of warranty.
Obviously, I just added bulk oil, Delo 30. I want to grab a jug of synth for her to get an OC at the dealer. Something that won't burn off, lol. I would like M1 10w-40 HM, but don't expect to find it at Wally's. Since it's summer, I don't care about cold flow, but what do you think about Rotella T Synth as a back-up? I also might consider SynPower 20w-50 or PP 15w-50. It might be a lil more expensive in quarts.
Budget is $25 and I don't even know the capacity.
What do we think?
Obviously, I just added bulk oil, Delo 30. I want to grab a jug of synth for her to get an OC at the dealer. Something that won't burn off, lol. I would like M1 10w-40 HM, but don't expect to find it at Wally's. Since it's summer, I don't care about cold flow, but what do you think about Rotella T Synth as a back-up? I also might consider SynPower 20w-50 or PP 15w-50. It might be a lil more expensive in quarts.
Budget is $25 and I don't even know the capacity.
What do we think?
My Wally's is always loaded with M1 HM 10w40. But I live in Arkansas, where we always get the first pick of everything Wally provides.
Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
Ok. I have an issue. My female friend has an '06 GLI and I was called over to add oil. It was 3q low, changed in Mar. Probally only 4-5k on the oil. It's going in for a 40k service, out of warranty.
Obviously, I just added bulk oil, Delo 30. I want to grab a jug of synth for her to get an OC at the dealer. Something that won't burn off, lol. I would like M1 10w-40 HM, but don't expect to find it at Wally's. Since it's summer, I don't care about cold flow, but what do you think about Rotella T Synth as a back-up? I also might consider SynPower 20w-50 or PP 15w-50. It might be a lil more expensive in quarts.
Budget is $25 and I don't even know the capacity.
What do we think?
If it was 3 qts. low I would check the cam follower ASAP. There are numerous reports of cam follower failing after running low (not out, just low) on oil. Low oil has been a major factor in many of the followers that have went bad. Doesn't mean it is bad on that car, but it is a huge warning sign. Billboard size huge, with neon lights.
As far as the oils you mentioned, some of those are really thick. Of those, the Rotella Syn sounds really interesting because it has shown good results in subi turbos and of course strong add pack which should be good for this engine. No Uoas of Rotella on this engine yet that I am aware of.
Ok. I have an issue. My female friend has an '06 GLI and I was called over to add oil. It was 3q low, changed in Mar. Probally only 4-5k on the oil. It's going in for a 40k service, out of warranty.
Obviously, I just added bulk oil, Delo 30. I want to grab a jug of synth for her to get an OC at the dealer. Something that won't burn off, lol. I would like M1 10w-40 HM, but don't expect to find it at Wally's. Since it's summer, I don't care about cold flow, but what do you think about Rotella T Synth as a back-up? I also might consider SynPower 20w-50 or PP 15w-50. It might be a lil more expensive in quarts.
Budget is $25 and I don't even know the capacity.
What do we think?
If it was 3 qts. low I would check the cam follower ASAP. There are numerous reports of cam follower failing after running low (not out, just low) on oil. Low oil has been a major factor in many of the followers that have went bad. Doesn't mean it is bad on that car, but it is a huge warning sign. Billboard size huge, with neon lights.
As far as the oils you mentioned, some of those are really thick. Of those, the Rotella Syn sounds really interesting because it has shown good results in subi turbos and of course strong add pack which should be good for this engine. No Uoas of Rotella on this engine yet that I am aware of.
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there are two solutions to DI deposit problems:
1. replace PCV system with catch can and vent out
2. install water/methanol injection system to steam clean intake valves and combustion chamber
1. replace PCV system with catch can and vent out
2. install water/methanol injection system to steam clean intake valves and combustion chamber
walmart has sale on syn oils - 5qt for about $20 M1, PP , Synpower etc...get 10w-30
No. No mechanical engine issues.
Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary
It also appears that Audi-VW are unaware of the "issue"
They were also "unaware" of plenty of other issues such as premature timing belt tensioner failures and ignition coil failures until they got slapped with a class action lawsuit.
Sometimes companies choose to sit quietly and wait for customers to start complaining.
It also appears that Audi-VW are unaware of the "issue"
They were also "unaware" of plenty of other issues such as premature timing belt tensioner failures and ignition coil failures until they got slapped with a class action lawsuit.
Sometimes companies choose to sit quietly and wait for customers to start complaining.
I went to the dealer with my friend who has a 40k GLI. I asked about valve cleaning, the charge was $140. The friend was there for a 40k service, which is little more than an air filter and tire rotation for $200. I told her to take the valve cleaning over the 40k service and got her a $10 German made Purolator air filter instead.
I asked if VW would be covering the valve cleaning since it's become a "maintenance item" that did not appear onthe schedule when the car was sold. They shot me down, even though my logic is sound. They advised me against DIY cleaning, but when pressed said ok to a DIY "maintenance" cleaning every 5k, (before an oil change). They were saying the deposits were too big to mess with on an engine with a lot of miles on it, but after their cleaning, DIY maintenance was ok.
Another reason to go ahead and pay for the dealer cleaning was if the issue itself becomes a bigger problem in the future, at least my friend can claim she did an extra dealer service to avert the problem, and should fall into the group of people that VW will take care of first.
btw- she also got the PCV update recall done, and we'll track the consumption more closely. I found the car 3q low. (added Delo 30 just to make it to the dealership).
I asked if the shop did a borescope before cleaning the valves and they said no. If pushed, they might have taken a look at it for me just out of curiosity.
I also intend to find out what exactly the valve cleaning process is. Just a can of spray into the intake, I'm shure, but I'll ask next time. I'll probally use Berryman's spray, since it's not my car, I will keep it simple.
fwiw, the Advance Auto $10 internet coupon added to 5q of VW Syntec, P1 and a air filter was only $25.
I asked if VW would be covering the valve cleaning since it's become a "maintenance item" that did not appear onthe schedule when the car was sold. They shot me down, even though my logic is sound. They advised me against DIY cleaning, but when pressed said ok to a DIY "maintenance" cleaning every 5k, (before an oil change). They were saying the deposits were too big to mess with on an engine with a lot of miles on it, but after their cleaning, DIY maintenance was ok.
Another reason to go ahead and pay for the dealer cleaning was if the issue itself becomes a bigger problem in the future, at least my friend can claim she did an extra dealer service to avert the problem, and should fall into the group of people that VW will take care of first.
btw- she also got the PCV update recall done, and we'll track the consumption more closely. I found the car 3q low. (added Delo 30 just to make it to the dealership).
I asked if the shop did a borescope before cleaning the valves and they said no. If pushed, they might have taken a look at it for me just out of curiosity.
I also intend to find out what exactly the valve cleaning process is. Just a can of spray into the intake, I'm shure, but I'll ask next time. I'll probally use Berryman's spray, since it's not my car, I will keep it simple.
fwiw, the Advance Auto $10 internet coupon added to 5q of VW Syntec, P1 and a air filter was only $25.
Excellent job of being proactive on known issues! For $140 I would guess the cleaning was some type of induction cleaning or spray product (like you said).
The mechanical cleaning is a PITA because you have to remove the intake manifold and clean with solvent, brushes or walnut gun, etc. But once it's cleaned mechanically, you know it is clean at that point and future preventative steps such as catch can, pcv bypass, seafoaming intake, etc. are starting from a clean slate.
Lower volatility oil and/or an oil with good cleaning properties may help also. I haven't read up on the details of using Biosyn in this regard but by all reports it sounds like it helps.
The mechanical cleaning is a PITA because you have to remove the intake manifold and clean with solvent, brushes or walnut gun, etc. But once it's cleaned mechanically, you know it is clean at that point and future preventative steps such as catch can, pcv bypass, seafoaming intake, etc. are starting from a clean slate.
Lower volatility oil and/or an oil with good cleaning properties may help also. I haven't read up on the details of using Biosyn in this regard but by all reports it sounds like it helps.
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