EV Subsidies?

[SC Maintenance]

$11m per minute is global, not just US. The US subsidizes "only" about $20BN of this.

$11M a minute is $5.7T a year. Globally GDP is around $97T, and the US is $23T and we agree USA subsidizes very little. So about 7% of global GDP, ex USA, is subsidized oil?

Assuming that is accurate, help me connect the dots. Because a bunch of countries subsidize fuel for their population, should that change how I feel about EV subsidies in the USA? Not a troll - legitimate question. I am having trouble seeing how its related?

 

[Torrid]

So it's not her own money? @Rand has a pretty valid point here, the method being utilized is heavily slanted toward higher earners, who are the people least in need of assistance in buying a new vehicle, as your, and my, recent vehicle buying sprees well-illustrates. The person he is describing isn't in the position to be playing "musical vehicles" and if the goal here is to spur broader adoption of EV's, helping people like that get into one makes a heck of a lot more sense than the guy who can already well afford it based on his recent buying history and vehicle turnover rate.

My e-tron was too expensive to qualify for the provincial EV rebate and you know what? I'm OK with that. I didn't need the help, but folks that make less than me (remember our talk about median family incomes) probably do. So while I'm not a fan of subsidies, I do think that giving them to folks that actually need the help if they are going to be handed out makes a lot more sense than giving them to people like you and me.

I think that's what some are missing when I say our car didn't qualify for a credit at the time either. It really didn't matter in the grand scheme of things. It didn't lessen my enjoyment of the vehicle. It was still the right purchase.

 

[Ws6]

So it's not her own money? @Rand has a pretty valid point here, the method being utilized is heavily slanted toward higher earners, who are the people least in need of assistance in buying a new vehicle, as your, and my, recent vehicle buying sprees well-illustrates. The person he is describing isn't in the position to be playing "musical vehicles" and if the goal here is to spur broader adoption of EV's, helping people like that get into one makes a heck of a lot more sense than the guy who can already well afford it based on his recent buying history and vehicle turnover rate.

My e-tron was too expensive to qualify for the provincial EV rebate and you know what? I'm OK with that. I didn't need the help, but folks that make less than me (remember our talk about median family incomes) probably do. So while I'm not a fan of subsidies, I do think that giving them to folks that actually need the help if they are going to be handed out makes a lot more sense than giving them to people like you and me.

It gets EVs on the road, and on the table of discussion. Otherwise, I don't really disagree. That said, I do know myself and at least one of my friends explored phev/ev because of the tax credit. Now, I buy an EV without it. So...it worked.

 

[OVERKILL]

It gets EVs on the road, and on the table of discussion. Otherwise, I don't really disagree. That said, I do know myself and at least one of my friends explored phev/ev because of the tax credit. Now, I buy an EV without it. So...it worked.

True, but I suspect you would have done so anyways, I know these sorts of discussions are what piqued my interest and I found the Audi attractive enough to buy one.

 

[demarpaint]

Not sure this country was founded on free enterprise. There has always been laws, regulations, taxes, etc.

Oh so it's a dictatorship? Where hard working taxpayer's money is given away to help accomplish a political agenda? I think not. You want to give subsidies away? Give Disabled American Veterans who served this great nation more help. I can think of a dozen better ways to spend that money used to subsidize the EV.

 

[k1xv]

Its not a "dictatorship". Most of these subsidies originate from legislation coming out of an elected Congress. Maybe a system corrupted by lobbyists and big money, but not a "dictatorship".

The tax codes are rife with subsidies, write offs, and write downs. Most corporations, particularly growing corporations, pay effective tax rates on their actual profits lower than the taxes paid by a working family. All authorized by laws passed by an elected Congress.

"Free enterprise", as you envision it, exists nowhere on earth.

 

[demarpaint]

Its not a "dictatorship". Most of these subsidies originate from legislation coming out of an elected Congress. Maybe a system corrupted by lobbyists and big money, but not a "dictatorship".

The tax codes are rife with subsidies, write offs, and write downs. Most corporations, particularly growing corporations, pay effective tax rates on their actual profits lower than the taxes paid by a working family. All authorized by laws passed by an elected Congress.

"Free enterprise", as you envision it, exists nowhere on earth.

You're missing my point. There are several better ways to spend taxpayer money that can actually help American people in need. Judging by some of the comments here it is clear to me this country changed a lot more than I thought.

Instead of a subsidy on the EV, why not tax them an extra $7,500 for the grid? LOL I wonder how the comments in this post would be changing.

 

[k1xv]

So, every national policy you disagree with comes from a "dictatorship", but if the policies were consistent with your preference, they are fine and dandy?

You just do not understand what a Dictatorship is or does. Governments with policies set by elected representatives are not "dictatorships" no matter how much you find them unwise or disagreeable.

North Korea.....Dictatorship

United States, representative democratic republic.....corrupted by too much external influence.

 

[demarpaint]

So, every national policy you disagree with comes from a "dictatorship", but if the policies were consistent with your preference, they are fine and dandy?

You just do not understand what a Dictatorship is or does. Governments with policies set by elected representatives are not "dictatorships" no matter how much you find them unwise or disagreeable.

North Korea.....Dictatorship

United States, representative democratic republic.....corrupted by too much external influence.

Clearly you missed my point, but that's OK. Regarding corrupted by too much external influence, you're correct. I'll add there's probably quite a bit of some internal corruption going on too. All you have to do is follow the money.

Oh and I did ask a legitimate question earlier: "Instead of a subsidy on the EV, why not tax them an extra $7,500 for the grid?" I'm reasonably sure that would be a game changer. Granted for some, not all.

 

[SC Maintenance]

It gets EVs on the road, and on the table of discussion. Otherwise, I don't really disagree. That said, I do know myself and at least one of my friends explored phev/ev because of the tax credit. Now, I buy an EV without it. So...it worked.

When the subsidies came out they were both to incentivize OEM's to make the cars and people to buy them. They were supposed to be capped at 200,000 units per OEM. I think Tesla, GM, Nissan and Even Toyota hit that cap. You could argue whether it made sense or not, but that part is over anyway.

In your case and many others, its already done its intended purpose.

I think extending it, and taking off the 200,000 unit cap as they have is simply profit margin to the manufacturers. The OEM's know the price point and would figure out how to hit it without the subsidy - again IMHO.

 

[SC Maintenance]

Wrong thread. Please delete.

 

[Lubener]

Give the incentive, than tax the heck out of them.

 

[alarmguy]

Subsidies = getting somebody to pay for somebody else's something elses.

^^^ This ^^^ based on a political agenda of promoting an idea and taking money out of Americans hard earned income for other people to buy something they can’t afford or would have not have bought.

 

[demarpaint]

^^^ This ^^^ based on a political agenda of promoting an idea and taking money out of Americans income for other people to buy something they can’t afford.

Bingo!

 

[Ws6]

^^^ This ^^^ based on a political agenda of promoting an idea and taking money out of Americans hard earned income for other people to buy something they can’t afford or would have not have bought.

Regarding the tax credit...its MY income...

 

[eljefino]

My take on subsidies, and this has been proven by various studies, is that the receiver of the the subsidy perceives the amount of money to be worth way more than it is really is, to the point of generating excitement.

It leveraged me from buying another used clunker into getting a new Prius Prime so i guess it was effective.

There was also a state spiff of $1000 from the VW dieselgate settlement, a $5000 rebate from Toyota, and a notable dealer contribution. Feb 2021, LOL.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Subsidies are inevitable, so please lets not discuss that for EVs. My question in this civil, mature discussion would be are they being effectively written to address shortcomings in a "let the market decide" direction of widespread EV adoption and/or they allowing mfgs use them as a crutch for their bottomline?

For instance the $7500 rebate, will it really allow a person whose budget is for a rav4/corolla make the jump effectively or is it targeted towards the higher then average transaction price buyer?

Sourcing requirements are in place, but the guidance in amounts are still unclear (I could be mistaken if they have launched new guidelines).

The Feds clarified the rules on Friday. Another thing is that it's a tax credit not a rebate.
Policymakers believe a subsidy will encourage adoption and help increase economies of scale so cheaper models can be built. The problem with the Corolla vs EV comparison is that an EV will perform exponentially better than a Corolla in every aspect but range. Performance has always been price dependent. The BEV because of its powertrain raised the floor.

 

[Rmay635703]

Its my own money. You want equal? Maybe YOU only get back from what YOU put in...hows that for equal?

In terms of income withheld from her annual pay that she cannot spend she likely pays a higher percentage of her income as taxes than you do. (Income is just one of many taxes, my folks used to pay half their gross income to property taxes)

At peak taxation, All in 65% of my income went to various taxes, fees, unavoidable withholdings that did nothing for me, etc.

My experience is that most who complain about rebates pay far less as a percentage of tax than I do.

 

[Ws6]

In terms of income withheld from her annual pay that she cannot spend she likely pays a higher percentage of her income as taxes than you do. (Income is just one of many taxes, my folks used to pay half their gross income to property taxes)

At peak taxation, All in 65% of my income went to various taxes, fees, unavoidable withholdings that did nothing for me, etc.

My experience is that most who complain about rebates pay far less as a percentage of tax than I do.

What, a single mom of 2 kids making $40k/year? You think she pays a higher percentage than me, once taxes get filed? How on earth do you figure that is even remotely possible in total dollar amount OR percentage? Explain that to me.

Looking at my W2 this year, when I compare my gross income to my net income, I see that 27.6% of it was removed from my check before I ever touched it. At the end of the year, were it not for the EV tax credit, I would owe around $500, still in Federal taxes, while getting back $1000 from state taxes. (Also consider that I paid about $5K in health insurance this year, which came out pre-tax. I did not use my health insurance. Not once. For anything. For the last 5 years. But I guess it's there for me...).

Now, if you are having 65% of your paycheck (salary, whatever) removed before you see it...holy hell! Wisconsin has, after $379K/year, a tax bracket of $19,XXX+7.65%, and your federal rate caps out at 37%, so let's easy-math this and just call Wisconsin 10% and Federal 40%. You're telling me that *somehow* your income was taxed yet ANOTHER 15%!? Get real. Or please at least show us your Gulfstream and Yacht and explain why you're not leveraging your debt far far better.

Let me help you...

...she gets:

HoH
$2000/kid
12% federal tax bracket

Her taxes come out to about 13-15% in my state ($219 for the first $8k, then 5.3% on remaining, of her $40k, and that's not factoring in if HoH or whatever else helps her, and what STATE credits she gets, which of course would vary state by state).

Literally half the percentage of what I pay (rough math).

 

[Rmay635703]

What, a single mom of 2 kids making $40k/year? You think she pays a higher percentage than me, once taxes get filed? How on earth do you figure that is even remotely possible in total dollar amount OR percentage? Explain that to me.

My folks likely paid a higher percentage on taxes than you making all of 4 figures and disabled but not on any form of public assistance. Property taxes, sales, withholdings, gas taxes and fees never end,
So it depends how much she is on the hook for unavoidables that everyone ignores as being taxes.

She could be far less in real taxation or far above depending on her specific situation and location.

My simple point is that it is very common for lower income brackets to have a larger chunk of their income “inaccessible “ due to .gov than people better off.

I have had both situations in the past
one where I made $15 an hour but due to being a contractor could take home almost 100% stiffing even SSI and the situation making $18/hr but having most of my paycheck taken by .gov one way or another
thus making a fraction of what I did at the lower wage.