EV Happenings in Germany

[BMWTurboDzl]

i Vision Circular (made mostly from recyclable materials and itself 100 percent recyclable, including the solid state batteries).​

Porsche Mission R. 30 mins track time and 80% battery charge in as little as 15 mins. Performance on par with 911 Carrera Cup.​

The Germans expect petrol sales in the US and other markets to help subsidize EV sales at home. Don't expect them to be the only automakers who do this.

 

[alarmguy]

Solid state batteries are the future, way too expensive right now, actually I didnt even know they had some in a vehicle yet, give it 10+ years and LI will be dead/dying/old news/old technology. I think Toyota will be the first with an affordable to the general public solid state battery EV. (at least they are planning on it)
The reason solid state will take over the market is the public will see the instant value in being able to recharge their vehicles in minutes vs hours.
This will ramp up production, competition and drive down prices, plus they wont be held hostage to the mining needed for LI batteries.

 

[wpod]

Now all we need is abundant low cost , almost 100% reliable electricity.

 

[JeffKeryk]

Now all we need is abundant low cost , almost 100% reliable electricity.

 

[OVERKILL]

View attachment 70580

1,106 days of uninterrupted power generation, producing 23 billion kWh.

 

[JeffKeryk]

View attachment 70614

1,106 days of uninterrupted power generation, producing 23 billion kWh.

Very nice... OVERKILL, what is your average monthly electricity bill, just for comparison?
I am at 3.5 years uninterrupted power generation and my bill is $9 per month, plus more than half way to get to break even point on the solar project. After break even, I will just pay the $9 (or whatever it is at that point) for years on end. Unless, of course, my energy use exceeds generation... Ya never know.

I believe in a multi-faceted solution to energy costs and the science that is a no-no on BOB. I bet you do as well.

 

[OVERKILL]

Very nice... OVERKILL, what is your average monthly electricity bill, just for comparison?

For electricity? My most recent was:

I am at 3.5 years uninterrupted power generation

Thanks to the grid. You are still grid-connected, so let's not try and pretend that your solar panels are powering your house 24/7/365, which we know isn't the case. You feed-in to the grid what you aren't consuming and get billed the difference if you use more than you export. That's not the same as a generator running for 1,106 days straight, not even remotely.

and my bill is $9 per month,

Yes, because you export more than you consume. You are also still paying for your solar panels. How much does that run you a month?

plus more than half way to get to break even point on the solar project.

Yes, which isn't included in the $9/month.

After break even, I will just pay the $9 (or whatever it is at that point) for years on end. Unless, of course, my energy use exceeds generation... Ya never know.

Until the panels die, yes.

I believe in a multi-faceted solution to energy costs and the science that is a no-no on BOB. I bet you do as well.

Your response was a bit disingenuous though, you must admit. You can't say your panels generate uninterrupted, because we know that's not true. Solar has its own suite of issues, such as the duck curve at high levels of penetration.

And yes, I believe in a group of effective solutions, which varies depending on geography. I also believe in limited penetration of solar, as once it starts displacing inexpensive zero emissions baseload, it brings with it no additional benefit. That's why solutions need to be a combination of technologies. Nuclear and hydro will play large roles, as should solar and pumped storage (batteries should be used for EV's, not the grid). I have no use for wind, as you know.

 

[JeffKeryk]

Your response was a bit disingenuous though, you must admit. You can't say your panels generate uninterrupted, because we know that's not true. Solar has its own suite of issues, such as the duck curve at high levels of penetration.

Apologies, I did not mean to mislead, that's why I included the solar in my post.
I don't think I said the solar panels supplied the electricity to my home, but it is easy to read it that way.
I guess what I meant was, my system has produced electricity to me uninterrupted for a very low cost.
The system includes the PG&E grid use.
My break even point is probably 7 years. 7 years (or more) was the original calculation but that was using 3 years past usage at then current prices. I use far more now, due to COVID (multiple computers and a tv on much of the day), air conditioning (I rarely used it in the past), charging an EV, etc.
PG&E prices go up every year. In the past decade, PG&E rates have gone up 31% — faster than inflation.
PG&E rates increased this past March and they proposed a 10% across the board increase to cover wildfires and other issues.

The panels are guaranteed for 20 years as I recall. I know I live in a solar bubble area. Around here, a solar project is a no brainer.
The solar project in an investment with an expected return. Otherwise, very few would people would buy solar.

What calculation do you want for the solar project cost? Over 7 years? 20 years? Usable life?
The panels were about $12K after Federal Tax Credit. I did not qualify for CA benefit. I also got 30% off the new roof that was installed at the same time, an additional savings of $3,700 over the $12,400 full price.
Over 20 years that's $50 per month. Less if you include the roof money.
Usable life cost? You can estimate that far better than I.
By the way, in finance, you do not amortize tangible assets, you depreciate them.
Straight line depreciation would be $50 per month. But what might be more accurate would be the 20 year cost, which is easily -$40,000, netted with savings.

Very conservatively, if I save $120 per month for 10 years, that's $14,400.
Conservatively, if I save $150 per month for 10 years, that's $18,000.
Compared to the $12,000 sunk cost, the panels are free. No, less than free.

There are many ways to look at the solar project cost. I appraoched the solar project as an investment in risk management.
Perhaps you have a solar panel project cost calculation that is appropriate. All good.

 

[Snagglefoot]

View attachment 70580

It craps it’s pants every night.

 

[artbuc]

Economics should be based on real cost without subsidies. All of us who helped pay for your system with our tax money should be paid our share of your savings.

 

[JeffKeryk]

Economics should be based on real cost without subsidies. All of us who helped pay for your system with our tax money should be paid our share of your savings.

I am not sure how this relates to economics.
I didn't make the law. I am pretty sure you know our taxes subsidize much more than my solar project.
You are welcome to install solar, should you choose to.
If it works for you, I will applaud your investment.

 

[loneryder]

For electricity? My most recent was:
View attachment 70621

Thanks to the grid. You are still grid-connected, so let's not try and pretend that your solar panels are powering your house 24/7/365, which we know isn't the case. You feed-in to the grid what you aren't consuming and get billed the difference if you use more than you export. That's not the same as a generator running for 1,106 days straight, not even remotely.

Yes, because you export more than you consume. You are also still paying for your solar panels. How much does that run you a month?

Yes, which isn't included in the $9/month.

Until the panels die, yes.


Your response was a bit disingenuous though, you must admit. You can't say your panels generate uninterrupted, because we know that's not true. Solar has its own suite of issues, such as the duck curve at high levels of penetration.

And yes, I believe in a group of effective solutions, which varies depending on geography. I also believe in limited penetration of solar, as once it starts displacing inexpensive zero emissions baseload, it brings with it no additional benefit. That's why solutions need to be a combination of technologies. Nuclear and hydro will play large roles, as should solar and pumped storage (batteries should be used for EV's, not the grid). I have no use for wind, as you know.

Your actual electric bill is not bad. The taxes and fees jacked it up.

 

[OVERKILL]

What calculation do you want for the solar project cost? Over 7 years? 20 years? Usable life?
The panels were about $12K after Federal Tax Credit. I did not qualify for CA benefit. I also got 30% off the new roof that was installed at the same time, an additional savings of $3,700 over the $12,400 full price.

OK, so what were the panels before the tax credit? Your roof is your roof, I'm not concerned about that bit, if you had to have it done, you had to have it done.

Did you pay for it all up front? I know a lot of people up here getting microFIT borrowed the money (I suspect you didn't) because the guaranteed return from the feed-in tariff would pay it off rapidly and then they were making a wicked profit, at the expense of the rest of us of course.

If you borrowed, it would be whatever it took to pay them off. If you paid cash, then how long it would take to break even from the savings on your hydro bill.

Let's say an array that offered comparable performance up here for me was $24,000. My hydro bill, as you can see, is around ~175.00; $2,100/year. Delivery has a base rate, probably around $25.00 in-town, so $300/year. So, in a net meter arrangement, my offset would be $1,800 if I used that much power every month (I don't, that's high, due to A/C usage). So, my break-even point is ~13.3 years, assuming my rates don't change, not factoring in degradation of the panels. Then, My net savings are $1,800/year until the panels need replacing.

Of course rooftop solar in Ontario doesn't have anywhere near the performance it does where you are. We'd be lucky to hit 12%, 10 is probably more realistic, and it craps the bed in the winter, so then my savings tank in the winter, extending the payback period.

Interestingly, in Australia, due to too much residential solar feeding into the grid, they've started to curtail/reject it, so then folks don't get paid for it. That's caused a lot of anger, as one would expect, singing up for the purpose of taking advantage of that arrangement.

 

[Snagglefoot]

Being further north with bad winter conditions one would decide not to bother compete with Bruce Nuclear, and instead invest the $24,000 in something that would give a better return rather than playing a game to reduce one’s power bill.

 

[zeky]

Looks like a controversail topic on BITOG. I better stay out of it.

 

[JeffKeryk]

OK, so what were the panels before the tax credit? Your roof is your roof, I'm not concerned about that bit, if you had to have it done, you had to have it done.

Did you pay for it all up front? I know a lot of people up here getting microFIT borrowed the money (I suspect you didn't) because the guaranteed return from the feed-in tariff would pay it off rapidly and then they were making a wicked profit, at the expense of the rest of us of course.

If you borrowed, it would be whatever it took to pay them off. If you paid cash, then how long it would take to break even from the savings on your hydro bill.

Let's say an array that offered comparable performance up here for me was $24,000. My hydro bill, as you can see, is around ~175.00; $2,100/year. Delivery has a base rate, probably around $25.00 in-town, so $300/year. So, in a net meter arrangement, my offset would be $1,800 if I used that much power every month (I don't, that's high, due to A/C usage). So, my break-even point is ~13.3 years, assuming my rates don't change, not factoring in degradation of the panels. Then, My net savings are $1,800/year until the panels need replacing.

Of course rooftop solar in Ontario doesn't have anywhere near the performance it does where you are. We'd be lucky to hit 12%, 10 is probably more realistic, and it craps the bed in the winter, so then my savings tank in the winter, extending the payback period.

Interestingly, in Australia, due to too much residential solar feeding into the grid, they've started to curtail/reject it, so then folks don't get paid for it. That's caused a lot of anger, as one would expect, singing up for the purpose of taking advantage of that arrangement.

$17,085.00 for a 5.10 kW system. Paid cash.
Panels: 17 LONGI SOLAR:LR6-60PB-300M
Inverters: 17 ENPHASE IQ7-60-2-US

By the way, while this was an excellent price 3.5 years ago, today it can easily be beat. I used Infinity Solar. Also, Costco Sunrun was very helpful. They were in 2nd place; I interviewed numerous companies for this expensive project. The Sunrun rep told me he could not touch the Infinity quote and that it was an excellent package. Again, current prices are quite a bit better.
Remember, I did this as a hedge against rising energy costs in my area. This is basic risk manangement and has turned out to be a good investment.
The new roof contributed to a forward looking decision to go ahead with the project. I am 100% satisifed.

Looks like a controversail topic on BITOG. I better stay out of it.

I can't speak to the controversial part, but I can say for sure I value OVERKILL's opinion and guidance.
People ask me about our Tesla Model 3 and Solar Panels; I wish to give them accurate information. His considerable knowledge enables me to do so.

 

[Snagglefoot]

The elephant in the room regarding “savings” from the use of solar power in California is the high price of power in the first place. The higher the price of power the more you “save”.

 

[Job]

For electricity? My most recent was:
View attachment 70621

That’s a clear and understandable electric bill. Very little extra fees I can see, almost all service. Not a bad rate at all. For me, paying an electric bill is better than solar because it just isn’t worth it for the time left. Then some stranger ends up with the solar I paid for.
Back to EV’s, a lot of people charge outside the home, and there are free level 2 stations, around here at least. The past 4000 miles I have used free to me charging for 3000 of it with a plug in. The odo says 263 mpg over the 4100 or so miles the car has from being built. (new car). So I have used about 15 gals of regular for over 4000 miles. I don’t need to do better than that, and I have a gas car in the same car whenever I want it. Every case is different though, plug in is working well for me. It drives just like a pure EV too.

 

[OVERKILL]

$17,085.00 for a 5.10 kW system. Paid cash.
Panels: 17 LONGI SOLAR:LR6-60PB-300M
Inverters: 17 ENPHASE IQ7-60-2-US

By the way, while this was an excellent price 3.5 years ago, today it can easily be beat. I used Infinity Solar. Also, Costco Sunrun was very helpful. They were in 2nd place; I interviewed numerous companies for this expensive project. The Sunrun rep told me he could not touch the Infinity quote and that it was an excellent package. Again, current prices are quite a bit better.
Remember, I did this as a hedge against rising energy costs in my area. This is basic risk manangement and has turned out to be a good investment.
The new roof contributed to a forward looking decision to go ahead with the project. I am 100% satisifed.


I can't speak to the controversial part, but I can say for sure I value OVERKILL's opinion and guidance.
People ask me about our Tesla Model 3 and Solar Panels; I wish to give them accurate information. His considerable knowledge enables me to do so.

So, assuming a 10% Canadian CF on those, they'd produce ~4,500kWh/year here; they'd cover about 4-5 months use of summer demand with their total annual output. Basically, they'd offset a bit less than half of my average monthly usage just using the raw numbers.

Of course CF is actually higher in the summer and lower in the winter.

 

[JeffKeryk]

The elephant in the room regarding “savings” from the use of solar power in California is the high price of power in the first place. The higher the price of power the more you “save”.

Of course; the solar companies use your last 3 years bills to calculate requirements and cost benefits.
Your CA numbers are higher than my home's numbers 3 years ago.
I am not sure about the elephant except he is a big one. I considered solar for 10 years before jumping in. I ran the numbers again and again until the results were compelling. The town of Los Gatos is the southern most city before you get into the Santa Cruz Mountains. We are the sunniest which means more porduction and more AC needs. A huge no brainer.
Again, this was a hedge against future cost increases; an investment with an expected return. I love my solar.
I can see possibly going off the grid one day, but for now this works for me.