EV buying criteria - What's important to you?

[UncleDave]

Our two vehicle plan is, one the wife drives that has awd and is a nice highway car for trips often in the winter, and my cheap 2wd beater for local stuff, my commute, and some autocross. The odd time I use my car for work trips and get some good mileage from that but I could take the nice car on those days.
A pure electric car doesn't really work that well for either of our cars. For the local commuter beater role, none that are cheap now have a far enough range for me especially in winter. For our nice car, to get a decent range costs way to much still, and finding a charger in the middle or end of a kids ski race weekend seems like a PITA I don't really need, plus the actual range in winter if you can't plug into 110V overnight starts to get really low if temps dip way down...
Its too early yet for me, the early adopter tax is still too high, not enough charging locations, and with gas at record lows and electricity going up and me probably working from home most days for the rest of my career, a new or nearly EV with some range makes zero sense financially.
A plug in hybrid seems to make more sense for us atleast although the low gas prices and rising electricity prices start to make running on pure electric not the deal it once was.
In 5-10 years I think we may have a plugin hybrid atleast, but a pure electric may only come when its time to replace the Outback which should be 10+ years.

So what are the metrics that would work for you?

 

[ABN_CBT_ENGR]

Regarding price: calculate how much you spend on oil, brake components and maintainence.
Pick the number of years, maybe 3 or 5.
Subtract that from the price of the EV. Tesla brakes are expected to last 100K or more.
You might also put a value on reliability. A Tesla Model 3 has like 17 moving parts in the drivetrain.

Seriously Jeff, How much of that is real versus hyperbole?

I grant you on reliability metrics- lesser parts is a good guideline but in no way an indicator of system reliability.

This still has an electromechanical interface and those break too.

 

[DuckRyder]

Regarding price: calculate how much you spend on oil, brake components and maintainence.
Pick the number of years, maybe 3 or 5.
Subtract that from the price of the EV. ...

I get what you're saying, but for me (that was the question right) - I don't care about that, I'd also argue that an EV has the potential long term to more than make up for it. I typically keep cars much longer than 5 years.

 

[IndyIan]

So what are the metrics that would work for you?

Good question. For a pure EV? I guess when the next gen of battery comes out and giving more range and quicker charging at less cost. A real 400 mile usable range in winter over a weekend. Put this in something like our Outback for $30-35k then we'd get the EV over the gas version next time. At -20C I think most of the electric cars are losing a mile or two of range per hour they are not plugged in just sitting there.
For the local beater car I can't see not buying used gas manual trans cars for the next 15 years. Cars like 8-10 year old Foci are cheap, fun to drive, seem to be free of expensive faults and the easy cheap repairs I can do myself. I think these type of gas cars will come back in niche popularity like 2 stroke mx bikes. Simple cheap to maintain and a bit slower than the modern 4 strokes, but good fun to ride because they're lighter and more challenging to hustle around.
I think unless governments raises taxes on gasoline, the huge durable efficient infrastructure of the fossil fuel industry feeding the gradually reducing demand for gas will have it being quite cheap for a long time...
Honestly, I hope in a few years when EV's and the charging infrastructure become more cost effective and common, fossil fuel taxes do go way up as raising CO2 levels in the atmosphere is a risky move globally.

 

[UncleDave]

On the 100K brake life I can believe that. I believe it COULD get that, not that I would get that.

My lexus got its first brake job at 75K and it only generates up to .3G of deceleration using regeneration enough that when driving conservatively on flat land in light traffic one can stay off the foundation brakes nearly indefinitely.

Although it has an annoying trait that abruptly cuts the regen if you encounter bumps above a certain size using it slowing down causing your planned stopping distance to increase suddenly and a need to push the pedal into the foundation brakes.

Tesli, and all BEV's seem to be able to do much better than that although Ive never seen any spec.
It feel like I can get almost .4g just lifting when in full regeneration mode.

 

[ABN_CBT_ENGR]

So what are the metrics that would work for you?

What I would almost have to have is a version of the following ( probably several different variations would do)

I would need an absolute consumption rate ( of energy) of the vehicle at a given load. ( The onus is then on me to use that to calculate that consumption against my requirements for adequacy)

I also need the drop dead absolute threshold of charge where the vehicle in question cannot provide the level or performance I need.

Unlike being low on gas- the ICE vehicle still performs on "fumes" at full use until the engine stops- any EV will have to show me the same.

 

[UncleDave]

Good question. For a pure EV? I guess when the next gen of battery comes out and giving more range and quicker charging at less cost. A real 400 mile usable range in winter over a weekend. Put this in something like our Outback for $30-35k then we'd get the EV over the gas version next time. At -20C I think most of the electric cars are losing a mile or two of range per hour they are not plugged in just sitting there.
For the local beater car I can't see not buying used gas manual trans cars for the next 15 years. Cars like 8-10 year old Foci are cheap, fun to drive, seem to be free of expensive faults and the easy cheap repairs I can do myself. I think these type of gas cars will come back in niche popularity like 2 stroke mx bikes. Simple cheap to maintain and a bit slower than the modern 4 strokes, but good fun to ride because they're lighter and more challenging to hustle around.
I think unless governments raises taxes on gasoline, the huge durable efficient infrastructure of the fossil fuel industry feeding the gradually reducing demand for gas will have it being quite cheap for a long time...
Honestly, I hope in a few years when EV's and the charging infrastructure become more cost effective and common, fossil fuel taxes do go way up as raising CO2 levels in the atmosphere is a risky move globally.

So 400 in an ontario winter at 35K. Got it.

 

[JeffKeryk]

Seriously Jeff, How much of that is real versus hyperbole?

I grant you on reliability metrics- lesser parts is a good guideline but in no way an indicator of system reliability.

This still has an electromechanical interface and those break too.

ABT, my post reflects the 10 years of Tesla results.
On my car, the only maintenance is cabin air filter and lubricate brake components in colder regions.

The reliability of the drivetrain has been stellar overall. I have read about a few issues, such as a short in the rear power inverter blew a pyrotechnic fuse. Obviously blowing a fuse is a lot better than a fire.
Issues can sometimes be corrected with over the air updates.

One more thing about Tesla. Their focus is on continuous improvement. They say their cars "do not have years", meaning the cars are designed to be easily updated with improvements and fixes. Of course there are limits to this philosophy, but it is refreshing.
The cars get better with time. My car has seen range, speed, driver assist, and infotainment improvements, among others.

I hope this helps.

 

[ABN_CBT_ENGR]

ABT, my post reflects the 10 years of Tesla results.

I accept and respect that and don't question your truth or accuracy one bit- however, it does not a control group make for any basis of comparison for the masses.

Issues can sometimes be corrected with over the air updates.

Lets try that with physical or mechanical issues.

One more thing about Tesla. Their focus is on continuous improvement. They say their cars "do not have years", meaning the cars are designed to be easily updated with improvements and fixes.

In reality, there is no company out there currently that doesn't have a similar version of this philosophy.

Lets also address actual repairs, parts replacement, damage and all that too.

I can make a valid argument that one reason the current ones "last so long" is that they are running nowhere near the pay loading current ICE's do so much of the vaunted "performance" is actually camouflaging another issue and when they are in fact subjected to all the additional rigors and loads they will quickly degrade. That condition has yet to be adequately tested yet.

 

[UncleDave]

What I would almost have to have is a version of the following ( probably several different variations would do)

I would need an absolute consumption rate ( of energy) of the vehicle at a given load. ( The onus is then on me to use that to calculate that consumption against my requirements for adequacy)

I also need the drop dead absolute threshold of charge where the vehicle in question cannot provide the level or performance I need.

Unlike being low on gas- the ICE vehicle still performs on "fumes" at full use until the engine stops- any EV will have to show me the same.

I cant speak for any other BEV but Tesla displays range at current load really well. Better than any gas car Ive driven.

Thing is as you know - there is almost no such thing as a completely stable load, wind, hills, traffic all combine to make it at least somewhat variable.

Ive never run any BEV out of juice so good question on how that goes down. Ive seen a few vids, but never done it. I don't own one but get to swap with employees.

I do everything I can to avoid running out of fuel, for fear of sucking in whatever garbage might be there and burning up a fuel pump.

Do you often run so close to the margin that you run out of fuel? Some guys do. My partner in the boat company is one of those never above a 1/4 tank guys and loves driving around on fumes - irks the crap out of me.

 

[Fattylocks]

Infrastructure to support charging the thing. At home or away.

 

[ABN_CBT_ENGR]

I cant speak for any other BEV but Tesla displays range at current load really well. Better than any gas car Ive driven.

Sure, I can take that for what its worth and any simple control system can do the same just like a gas gauge. That goes back to the payload question because that's what determines the actual relative value of that range.

Or to put it in "neck" talk- if all I can do with the thing is drive it, it aint worth much.

Thing is as you know - there is almost no such thing as a completely stable load, wind, hills, traffic all combine to make it at least somewhat variable.

Fully agree and as I pointed out above the onus would be on "me" to do that calculating. That said, I need a legitimate estimate of the consumption against a true baseline to do that math.

Do you often run so close to the margin that you run out of fuel? Some guys do. My partner in the boat company is one of those never above a 1/4 tank guys and loves driving around on fumes - irks the crap out of me.

No and I question the walking upright intelligence of those who do. That doesn't mean I don't contingency plan and sometimes circumstances require me to push envelopes I normally wouldn't.

 

[IveBeenRued]

I’m all about safety. Any car that we buy has to be a Top Safety Pick+ with Good rated headlights.

 

[Rmay635703]

TCO

I can buy a Chevy bolt for around $10,000 used

But I have to pay an additional EV Fine of $665 title + registration

I only pay $200 annually to fuel my little econobox so the additional taxes and higher insurance kill the deal so there is no point.

Get rid of these taxes and I would own one but as long as the state charges additional taxes for hybrids, plug in hybrids and EVs it’s a hard no

 

[BeerCan]

But

TCO

I can buy a Chevy bolt for around $10,000 used

But I have to pay an additional EV Fine of $665 title + registration

I only pay $200 annually to fuel my little econobox so the additional taxes and higher insurance kill the deal so there is no point.

Get rid of these taxes and I would own one but as long as the state charges additional taxes for hybrids, plug in hybrids and EVs it’s a hard no

But wouldn't you have to subtract the gas taxes you would save over the life of the car to get a reasonable TCO? Sure you pay the tax upfront but it may offset in the long term. I'm just floating this out there, I never really put much thought into it, just wondering out loud.

 

[gathermewool]

I changed the brakes on my FXT at 73,140 miles and they still had maybe six months to a years worth of meat left on ‘em. They were starting to rust and stick so it was time, though.

I wouldn’t consider any EV to be significantly more durable over the first 140k miles compared to an equivalent gasser or PHEV.

//

Ive considered something like a used Leaf for my DD, but dont like the size. My commute is only 22 miles round trip. I feel like that’s too little to take full advantage of an EV, even a cheap used one with limited range...like a Leaf.

I‘ll consider a CUV or minivan-sized EV to replace our Forester when they come down in price and have at least 300 miles of range and available in the worst case scenario (fully loaded; heat on max, heated seats on high), wide spread fast-charge capability.

AWD preferred.

No more than $35k (after all rebates and incentives is fine) for the equivalent of Subaru’s Premium trim.

Electricity rates, hopefully countered by solar by the time I’m ready to purchase an EV (~5+ years), will need to make sense financially. I don’t want to have an artificial ROI over a gas equivalent of 10 years. Who knows what gas prices will be like by the. $2/gal? $6/gal? Same goes for insurance rates and any taxes that may be imposed on EVs in the future; they can’t be prohibitive.

 

[Rmay635703]

But

But wouldn't you have to subtract the gas taxes you would save over the life of the car to get a reasonable TCO? Sure you pay the tax upfront but it may offset in the long term. I'm just floating this out there, I never really put much thought into it, just wondering out loud.

I only pay about $37 of gas taxes each year on a normal car.

And after the big 1st year tax you continue paying higher registration over the life of the vehicle so you never come ahead, let alone my insurance would double.
(The registration taxes are being actively legislated to go even higher by our covid minded state assembly cause unemployed people totally will pay an unexpected 4 figure increase on a fee)

I could accept the higher fee if the state was using it to add a few chargers, then I could go on a weekend trip to the north but this state has ZERO public charging to the north where I actually drive, limiting the car to my typical weekly driving patterns.

Since this state decentivizes good fuel economy let alone anything with a plug I have had to take action.

Fool me once scenario, I own a Volt that pays sky high registration now
but it’s become my mother’s since she is afraid of gas stations but I’ve gone back to old reliable and plan on getting registration exempt collectors back on road to stick it to the state.
Bloody mandatory insurance is hard to get on old cars for some reason but I will find a way around.

I already own a registration exempt antique EV that needs insurance and batteries.

I have had 5 insurance companies refuse to insure antique daily drivers with liability, really not sure what is up with that. Before insurance was mandatory my old cars were about $85 a year to insure once the law passed my insurance dropped my old cars from the policy

 

[UncleDave]

I changed the brakes on my FXT at 73,140 miles and they still had maybe six months to a years worth of meat left on ‘em. They were starting to rust and stick so it was time, though.

I wouldn’t consider any EV to be significantly more durable over the first 140k miles compared to an equivalent gasser or PHEV.

//

Ive considered something like a used Leaf for my DD, but dont like the size. My commute is only 22 miles round trip. I feel like that’s too little to take full advantage of an EV, even a cheap used one with limited range...like a Leaf.

I‘ll consider a CUV or minivan-sized EV to replace our Forester when they come down in price and have at least 300 miles of range and available in the worst case scenario (fully loaded; heat on max, heated seats on high), wide spread fast-charge capability.

AWD preferred.

No more than $35k (after all rebates and incentives is fine) for the equivalent of Subaru’s Premium trim.

Electricity rates, hopefully countered by solar by the time I’m ready to purchase an EV (~5+ years), will need to make sense financially. I don’t want to have an artificial ROI over a gas equivalent of 10 years. Who knows what gas prices will be like by the. $2/gal? $6/gal? Same goes for insurance rates and any taxes that may be imposed on EVs in the future; they can’t be prohibitive.

So 22 miles a day X5 a week if you are going to the office every day.

curious, do you use the same car for weekends and grocery shopping

Do you fill the tank "about" once week?

 

[gathermewool]

My wife is a stay at home mom, so she does most of the shopping (online pickup at Walmart usually due to Covid). I do stop maybe once a week, on average, for things, though. I also work some weekends and will occasionally do multiple trips to various places running errands, as well.

I’ve also been work-from-home occasionally.

@30 MPG in my Legacy , my DD, I get 400+ miles/tank; I only need to fillup every 2-4 weeks.

/

My only point is that to take full advantage of an EV I feel like a longer commute would be more cost-effective.

 

[Cujet]

Range, purchase price and charging time. The triple whammy of EV's.