European vs. American vehicle oil requirements

[chenobylite]

Starting to get off topic but I've traveled some in Russia, from the White Sea, to the Far East around Valdivostok, to Tomsk in Siberia. Been to Moscow and Saint Pete too. To say the place is big is an understatment but it's an amazing country and the people can be wonderful. The langauge makes me crazy though, even after wacking away at it off and on for several years I still sound like an idiot.

Too bad they keep the somewhat draconian visa requirements in force. That registering it thing after you arrive is a hassle. Ukraine recently dropped visas for Americans so I wonder when Putin will do the same. Vad, depending one where you go you might be surprised to find things haven't changed much at all.

 

[vad]

WOW!!!
You've been all over the place...
I'm surprised they've kept the Visa hassle.
Don't be so hard on your russian.
The fact that you can speak the language is already a huge achievement by itself.
BTW, the locals find the American accent quite charming.

 

[G-MAN]

quote:

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Originally posted by FowVay:
BMW's LongLife 01 specification is a 5W-30

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BMW's newest LongLife oil is relabeled Castrol Formula RS 0w40. They no longer use 5w30 as factory fill.

 

[99]

quote:

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Originally posted by Mitch Alsup:
In Europe, people get to drive on the autobahn , floor the throttle, and drive as fast as the traffic and their cars allow:

An oil suitable for 110dF temperatures and 70MPH may be completely unsuitable for 100dF and 170MPH;

Even when the engine is identical between the states car and the European car.

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That's just what I was going to say. The driving conditions in Europe, for the most part, are night and day from what we see here in North America.

 

[99]

Isn't Russia part of Aisa, not Europe?

 

[FowVay]

BMW's oil specifications don't dictate a specific viscosity grade per se.

BMW LL-98 was based on ACEA A3 performance requirements. Oils that met this spec. were generally xW-40's and heavier.

BMW LL-01 was based on ACEA A1 performance requirements. Oils that met this spec. were generally xW-30's.

BMW LL-04 is again based on ACEA A1/A5 with specific attention given to the emissions system performance and extending the life of the components. This is again based on A1/A5 performance using low SAPS technology.

BMW, like most Euro mfgrs, has adopted the low viscosity, high HT/HS theory of performance. They seem to like the 2.9 cP oils (9.3 cSt - 16.3 cSt) with HT/HS vis greater than 3.5cP's at high temps.

As for Mobil's 0w-40 meeting the LL-01 specification, this is a rather unique product in that it also carries the API starburst (at least it once did. I am not certain that it does under the API 'SM' rating) which indicates that it also provides improved fuel economy. I don't know of any other xW-40 oils that carry the starburst. Mobil does have a fascinating product on their hands.

[ October 23, 2005, 04:05 AM: Message edited by: FowVay ]

 

[vad]

quote:

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Originally posted by 99:
Isn't Russia part of Aisa, not Europe?

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Both.

 

[chenobylite]

Well, technically it's Asia but the western part is often referred to as European Russia. You're right in technical however and that's usually the best kind of right

There is quite a bit of difference driving in Russia than Europe. The roads are very bad in places and the cops are out of control, although they can easily be bought off. In fact it's expected. I could tell you stories...

Then there are the cars. Outside the big cities you're usually dealing with the ubiquitous Lada, a machine that defies reliable operation although the newer ones are better. There are so many jokes about Ladas I can't remember them all.

Inside the cities you'll see lots of BMWs and Mercedes driven by big hulking guys who wait outside places for their bosses. Best not to mess with them. I have more time in Ukraine than Russia but it's not much better there. Driving in either place is sometimes more hassle than it's worth.

 

[vad]

I feel like

Technically or Geographically Russia lies in both Europe and Asia.

The European and Asian part of Russia "collide" in the Ural mountains.
Culturally Russia is and will remain a European country with mostly European people inhabiting it.

Unfortunately there are some sites on the net that for whatever reason don't treat the European part of Russia as a geographical part of Europe.
This is where all the confusion starts.

Here is one example.

[ October 23, 2005, 06:33 PM: Message edited by: vad ]

 

[moribundman]

From the wikipedia:

quote:

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Europe is geologically and geographically a peninsula or subcontinent, forming the westernmost part of Eurasia. It is conventionally considered a continent, which, in this case, is more of a cultural distinction than a geographic one. It is bounded to the north by the Arctic Ocean, to the west by the Atlantic Ocean, to the south by the Mediterranean Sea, and to the east its boundary is culturally determined and unclear. However, the Ural mountains are considered by some to be a geographical and tectonic landmark separating Europe and Asia.

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[bar1]

quote:

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From the wikipedia:

quote:

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...However, the Ural mountains are considered by some to be a geographical and tectonic landmark separating Europe and Asia.

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For most Europeans this is not unclear. The eastern border of Europe is the Ural mountains. That's what Europeans learn at school.

 

[vad]

Most geographic authorities including the National Geographic Society and CIA World Factbook agree that the Europe-Asia boundary follows the watershed of the Ural Mountains.

 

[AEHaas]

From the World Book:
Asia also contains some of the world's largest and smallest countries in area. Russia, which lies partly in Europe but mostly in Asia, is the world's largest country in area. It covers more than 6 1/2 million square miles (17 million square kilometers). But three Asian nations-Bahrain, the Maldives, and Singapore-each cover less than 300 square miles (780 square kilometers).

aehaas

 

[moribundman]

Bah, Europe is a Swedish hard rock band.

 

[G-MAN]

quote:

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Originally posted by FowVay:
BMW's oil specifications don't dictate a specific viscosity grade per se.

BMW LL-98 was based on ACEA A3 performance requirements. Oils that met this spec. were generally xW-40's and heavier.

BMW LL-01 was based on ACEA A1 performance requirements. Oils that met this spec. were generally xW-30's.

BMW LL-04 is again based on ACEA A1/A5 with specific attention given to the emissions system performance and extending the life of the components. This is again based on A1/A5 performance using low SAPS technology.

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Where did you come up with all this wrong information? LL01 oils were based on A3. A1 is NOT an extended drain spec. Castrol's SLX LL04 oil is a 0w30 grade that meets A3/B3/B4/C3, not A1/A5. A5 is a low HTHS extended drain spec, while A1 is just a low HTHS spec. LL04 is an extended drain, low SAPS spec.

 

[chenobylite]

quote:

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Originally posted by vad:
I feel like

Technically or Geographically Russia lies in both Europe and Asia.

The European and Asian part of Russia "collide" in the Ural mountains.
Culturally Russia is and will remain a European country with mostly European people inhabiting it.

---

OK, fair nuff. In the west it's usually taught (at least where I'm from) that Russia is Asia because the majority of the country lies east of the Urals, with the minority part that lies west as European Russia. But hey, I'm not gonna argue with the National Geographic Society. The CIA well, they can go pound sand

Regardless, people should visit the place and enjoy all it has to offer.

 

[glennc]

For the purposes of comparing American and European driving conditions, I think it's to be inferred that we're really concerned with Western Europe primarily - Denmark to Italy to Portugal, say; maybe GB and Scandinavia.

Climate-wise, there is a broad range in temperatures between the northern and southern parts of the continent, but all are moderated by Atlantic currents and any given area will lack the extreme range typical in many parts of the US.

The driving culture is completely different, as is the car maintenance culture. Oil changes are more expensive, rarely done by owners, and spaced far apart. Cars are regulated off the road through aggressive inspection regimes long before engine life is used up, so extending engine life is less important. It is completely normal to start one's car on a cold morning and be accelerating through 90mph within two or three minutes. There is increasing regulation of speed but no puritanical cultural acquiescence to it, so driving tends to be full-throttle, flat out, any time you can get away with it. Small cars and diesels are more common than large and powerful cars, which makes for powerplants that are taxed to the max even in "normal" driving. Finally, there is not much of the moderate suburban driving that we have here: no wide boulevards, traffic-calmed side roads or timed-for-a-steady-thirty-five semi-urban routes. Except for rural dwellers, most driving is either in heavy city traffic or pedal-to-the-metal on the highway.

I don't know what that means for engine oils, exactly, but it seems like a tough life for an engine.

 

[AEHaas]

One needs to look at the oil, not only the specification.

ACEA A1 oils must have a HTHS of 2.9 to 3.5.

A3 oils must have a HTHS of greater than 3.5. They also have extended time requirements for oxidative and shear stability as well as other requirements. These are those things needed for extended oil drain intervals.

A5 oils must have the extended oil drain interval requirements but can be thinner than 3.5 at the HTHS point.

One requirement is that the oil must remain within the original grade over the expected oil drain interval. But one must look at a specific oil. For example, an oil that starts out at the top of the 30 grade oil and thins to the minimum thickness within the grade would pass the standard.

A “better” oil may be one that starts out at the minimum of the 40 grade specification and only drops 0.2 cS during the test period. It would not meet the ACEA specification because it dropped into the lesser 30 grade but it thinned much less than the other oil above.

An ACEA A3 oil must be able to be used for extended oil drain intervals but what if it have a HTHS viscosity of 7.5? One may think that any A3 would work and be “better” than an A1 but this oil may be too thick for your engine. This is where A5 comes in handy. It has an extended oil drain interval but a maximum HTHS of 3.5.

What this all amounts to for the seasoned oil enthusiast is that we must look at the total oil package and try some within our own needs. Then UOA would be helpful as to the final comfort level of what oil brand and viscosity you would use.

aehaas

 

[Paranoil]

quote:

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Originally posted by glennc:

The driving culture is completely different, as is the car maintenance culture. Oil changes are more expensive, rarely done by owners, and spaced far apart. Cars are regulated off the road through aggressive inspection regimes long before engine life is used up, so extending engine life is less important. It is completely normal to start one's car on a cold morning and be accelerating through 90mph within two or three minutes. There is increasing regulation of speed but no puritanical cultural acquiescence to it, so driving tends to be full-throttle, flat out, any time you can get away with it. Small cars and diesels are more common than large and powerful cars, which makes for powerplants that are taxed to the max even in "normal" driving. Finally, there is not much of the moderate suburban driving that we have here: no wide boulevards, traffic-calmed side roads or timed-for-a-steady-thirty-five semi-urban routes. Except for rural dwellers, most driving is either in heavy city traffic or pedal-to-the-metal on the highway.

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Have you ever actually driven in Europe?
Although you're right about most cars being scrapped because of corrosion or the fact that repairs/maintenance necessary to keep the car legal would far exceed the cost of replacing the vehicle with a new one.

quote:

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Originally posted by glennc:

Climate-wise, there is a broad range in temperatures between the northern and southern parts of the continent, but all are moderated by Atlantic currents and any given area will lack the extreme range typical in many parts of the US.

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Stockholm for example:

Winter (low): average -5C peak -28C
Summer (high): average 22C peak 35C

 

[1sttruck]

"Have you ever actually driven in Europe?"

Yes, but it's been awhile. On the 'autopista' in Spain I can remember being tapped out at about 125 mph on a BMW 750 bike, and having to scoot over for the faster traffic. Being a passenger in cars on narrow roads in the country and in the city was often a breath taking affair, and I was always amazed that the in-laws didn't have scratches and dents all over their cars. Day trips with friends in Germany was fun, and I quickly realized that I'd probably never be as good of a driver as my wife's friend, watching her slice thru city traffic and on the highways. I say this having driven sport bikes for 20 years in the US.