European OEM's and their EV timelines

I think you're working pretty hard to make a case. The market isn't static. There's things going on regardless of whether Telsa is the cause or not such as the switch to trucks/suv's leading to a decline in sedan sales. You can either say it's due to Tesla stealing them or that those buyers are just going to trucks/suvs. You'd have a good case for Tesla if the truck/suv sales were static and luxury car sales declined and Tesla increased. But that's not what happened. All the auto makers compete with other auto makers, people switch from Audi, BMW, Mercedes and other brands all the time. The standard cycle is that one maker comes out with something and steals some market share, then they come out with something else to steal it back. It's not a done deal that Telsa will maintain market share. One thing car companies do is refresh their fleet every 3-4 years to generate new interest, Tesla doesn't seem to be doing that yet. You could look at the Prius, when sales were skyrocketing, people though they were going to take over the world, then more competition came out and sales have been declining for a while.

Not really hard. The premise of accurate comparison is pretty simple.

Go look at way the market themselves segments car sales and use that as a guideline.

One cannot be disruptive where you dont even compete.

As for refreshes there are metal refreshes and driveline and electronic refreshes -
Tesla may not refresh the metal as often as anyone, but they refresh the rest of car at a factor of 10X.

Who has ever added acceleration or decreased braking distance with an update?
 
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Not you, my uncle Dave is spreading so much additional Gigajargon.

Could somebody please draw an approximate curve for the ramping up of combined non-Gigaluxury prod cap to put the 7M into perspective? No ideas what the figures might be? Why reproduce the 7M then? Because it sounds giga?
Numbers will hurt before the first S-Plaids will arrive, the first Cybertrucks will be shown and the first Baby-Teslas will be designed.

A world of more and more non-Giga platforms on the rise perceived as a world of more and more segments Tesla may conquer and dominate...
Giga is simply the name attached to the Tesla factories.
Gigafactory

Fremont capacity is about 500K+ cars.
Shanghai is 2M+. Opened last year and ramping.
Berlin is 2M+. Expected to open later this year.
Austin is 2M+. Expected to open early 2022.

When completed and ramped, WW capacity is expected to be > 7M cars.
I hope this answers your questions.
 
No, Jeff. What are you comparing the 7M against? Lexus + Cadillac and Jaguar (two pure players) + NIO and more chinese pure players + Volvo (okay, we should start to denote the non pure players...) + Mercedes + BMW +++++

17M for them all? 27M? Will it not be relevant as capacity communication is only ever a factor on stock markets for folks further down the pyramids that hopefully never ever want to know a thing or two before considering voluntary buy?

Giga loses its meaning over so much Gigatalk entirely disinterested in next to everything automotive.
 
No, Jeff. What are you comparing the 7M against? Lexus + Cadillac and Jaguar (two pure players) + NIO and more chinese pure players + Volvo (okay, we should start to denote the non pure players...) + Mercedes + BMW +++++

17M for them all? 27M? Will it not be relevant as capacity communication is only ever a factor on stock markets for folks further down the pyramids that hopefully never ever want to know a thing or two before considering voluntary buy?

Giga loses its meaning over so much Gigatalk entirely disinterested in next to everything automotive.
Its you doing the gigaspeak.
 
Yes, I adopted the pure plays and am about to adopt the Giga but I promise to not adopt the whack. I probably need to try my best to make the villain bigger than that.
 
Yes, I adopted the pure plays and am about to adopt the Giga but I promise to not adopt the whack. I probably need to try my best to make the villain bigger than that.
Although it's hard to understand what you say sometimes, this one makes the most sense.

Speaking of bubbles, Tesla down 7.8% today and bitcoin fell to about 30k today at one point from 41k at it's height just a few days ago, but now going back up to about 34k. Could just be a head fake, who knows.
 
No, Jeff. What are you comparing the 7M against? Lexus + Cadillac and Jaguar (two pure players) + NIO and more chinese pure players + Volvo (okay, we should start to denote the non pure players...) + Mercedes + BMW +++++

17M for them all? 27M? Will it not be relevant as capacity communication is only ever a factor on stock markets for folks further down the pyramids that hopefully never ever want to know a thing or two before considering voluntary buy?

Giga loses its meaning over so much Gigatalk entirely disinterested in next to everything automotive.
Those companies are not pure play EV companies. Pure play is a business term that refers to a single purpose, resulting in singular products and customer base. Tesla only makes EVs (aka pure play EV company) while the others have to spread economic resources over gas and electric vehicles.

The 7M number refers to future Tesla planned manufacturing capacity based on plant size. I did not speak to market demand.

Again, Giga is a name. Just like blingo. Please don't overthink it.

FYI, I have nothing against other car manufacturers. I have way too many and will likely buy more. Refer at my signature...
Ford F-150 pickup trucks were mentioned by Wolf359. If I were looking for a truck, that would likely be my choice. I find Tesla to be a fascinating company. Musk was nearly broke and Tesla nearly bankrupt in 2017-2018 due to problems with the robotics in the manufacturing line. Well, they made it and now are filthy rich. The cars themselves are flat out amazing. Having said that, I generally discourage prospective buyers due to high cost and charging opportunity.

If you have any questions about what I post, please feel free to ask. I may be wrong about things; I am not perfect.
All the best to you blingo.

Tesla Roadster.jpg
 
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Toyota/Lexus, BMW and Mercedes are certainly taking their time, but they're not suffering from making money producing and selling developed ICE vehicles. They need not build up capacities and learn how to build cars, they're facing completely different difficulties I touched on several times. But I know I'm blingo – no one would ever admit having read this or anything else from me ;-)

It's okay, Jeff. My only actual questions to ask in such cases would be, how many similar boards or at least sections in his activism one's "managing" that way. How he's feeling doing what he does. And of course ask him et al. to inform one another the very moment they personally decide to quit.

What you do post leaves little room for any other questions. I could never genuinely ask you where you'd think all the wealth would be coming from. For example.
The less so because it's not even the stock market & musketeers thread.

Okay, one question maybe: What could be done about that Norway?
 
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Toyota/Lexus, BMW and Mercedes are certainly taking their time, but they're not suffering from making money producing and selling developed ICE vehicles. They need not build up capacities and learn how to build cars, they're facing completely different difficulties I touched on several times. But I know I'm blingo – no one would ever admit having read this or anything else from me ;-)

It's okay, Jeff. My only actual questions to ask in such cases would be, how many similar boards or at least sections in his activism one's "managing" that way. How he's feeling doing what he does. And of course ask him et al. to inform one another the very moment they personally decide to quit.

What you do post leaves little room for any other questions. I could never genuinely ask you where you'd think all the wealth would be coming from. For example.
The less so because it's not even the stock market & musketeers thread.

Okay, one question maybe: What could be done about that Norway?
Apologies; I have zero understanding of most of your post.

Regarding wealth, if I understand what you are asking, is market capitalization. That's a prime measure of a company's worth.
I believe you are incorrect about building up capacities building cars, at least EV cars. How many EV manufacturing plants do those manufacturers have? What about a charging network? Do they have resources to build these? Timeline? How much AP data have they captured?

Regarding Norway, I suspect you are asking about the Tesla sales decline, primarily to Volkswagon. Tesla finally has competition. Tesla also has production capacity limitations which are being addressed.
I believe the Model 3 was the 2nd largest seller after the e-tron. They sell a lot of cars there. And as everyone knows, competition makes for better products. The consumer is the winner.

I hope this helps.
 
Volvo I guess decided in 2017 or so to quit (pure) ICE vehicles (Germans were laughing at Volvo advocating a german speed limit as Volvos obviously would become like Teslas on the Autobahn anyway ;-)
Jaguar like Cadillac is going EV, Toyota/Lexus is somewhat late but definitely prepared to build around their solid state battery in any numbers they'd see fit, even in parallel to a fuel cell line and hybrid lines if opportune. Just trust them insofar. NIO and others are pure players from the beginning. Genesis/KIA/Hyundai are building their platform that alone will have a massive impact, GM could start with Honda/Acura if it saw advantages https://businessjournaldaily.com/article/ultium-doubles-footprint-in-lordstown/
Utilization of 7.5M capacity won't be easily given without cooperation of Tesla – but who'd want to cooperate to any important extent? They might produce like Steyr produces for different brands for better utilization. Or become more and more of a supplier, supplying an autopilot and the undetachable rear bumper or so... Who'd care much what they'll do except for some managers elsewhere buying that?

Now, BMW and Mercedes are shifting their ICE engines to Austria, eastern Europe and China for their own transition. They all are thinking platforms, not a model or four that might come and go. They are fine with faculties crumbling and ZF no longer developing conventional transmissions for ICE vehicles, they certainly do not fear running out of capacities or capital. They see opportunities to fight a union but even in that regard the Musk ain't worth much: EV as such mean leaner production and the leaner production is a two sided sword, politically it's one of their problems as it costs influence.
EV technically can come from Turkey like a TOGG and their own workforce around Stuttgart or Munich would start buying TOGGs; could come from a swiss or canadian start up, from GB or anywhere else. No one's ten years ahead in an e-mobility and certainly not Tesla who right now is running out of relevancy. No models, no quality, no fresh narratives, no real platforms ready, no backbones except for a Gigacharger name that I cannot remember right now as it means nothing. (Battery swapping 2.0 in China for NIO means something, even though it will probably not be around forever, because it's more exclusive and people order NIO instead of Tesla for the upgrade, swap and BaS-options alone. Not exactly the same as the Gigacharger against the 800V for E-GMP's 700mph, especially since solid state batteries should render some of that obsolete within a few years.)

"Autopilots" would probably be half as important at your east coast, in Moscow and Peking, rest of world even less so. Would be – if they were a barrier at all for NIO, KIA, VWPorscheAudiBugattiLamborghiniBentleyBoys, LiAuto, Xpeng, BMW, Mercedes – you can never name realities but they're out there.
Even chargers would tend to be a bigger problem than that. In the sense of acceptable chargers: https://ecomento.de/2020/12/21/genossenschaft-ladegruen-baut-bundesweites-oekostrom-ladenetz-auf/
But people need not wait for a Caesar arranging their infrastructures, their grids like the US seem to mostly think when looking at whatever wiring as eternally nationally insufficient. The rest of world ain't that fascinated with branding. People e.g. become limited partners for the electricity from the windmill in their backyard plus 5% a year. And have their tsars deal with the devoted complements. Unless they lose their 5000€ building TSLA pyramids of wealth instead.
A windmill here, a group of chargers there running from the tramway's traction current, some conversion of big oil's gas stations, home charging from solar roofs installed everywhere already. Did I mention more than two or three times that I can get my Aiways U5 from the local electronics store?

No chance Tesla will ever get a foot into e-mobility anywhere else in the world so that it could let your so called market capitalization survive. They're producing phantasies that less and less people take note of wherever actual EV from all over the world arrive. And this Norway shows that one or two first entries out of 5 to 35 per platform from one major out of a dozen majors suffice to kill all real phantasy as the market matures and EV instead of Teslas are bought. Not much of a vicious circle actually as you're not looking fast enough ;-) Only a bubble leaving an also-ran.

The consumer is the winner? Well, the Tesla brand at least is not. I guess you asked about thinking of any manufacturer ever having been disruptive at some point... Turn that around: There will never have been any. Who'd even dare to affirm the idea of half of all cars around the world coming from Gigafactories? Which would not be sufficient future market share to justify current valuation.
But TSLA is more than Tesla, I know. And yes, your Muskaesar should spend more time in Germany from now – help buffering renewables, you know.

One more entry that only helps to keep this EV-section free of anything non-TSLA. I shall leave it at that to avoid pseudo debating, Jeff.
It's your hobby, not mine. I'm basically watching to see how exactly activism ends, but that's no more interesting to watch here than anywhere else. Boilerplates and figures, Abziehbilder und Charaktermasken – mostly exactly the same and always easy to understand.
 
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You should remember that we are talking about Tesla as a corporation and not just a seller of a few models of EV's. At some point very soon in the future, TSLA will have a revenue stream coming in not only from their vehicle sales but from sales of insurance, HVAC systems, solar systems and licensing of their software. Not to mention fleet sales to robotaxi companies. Who are Uber and Lyft going to order their robotaxis from if that market really does explode in the next couple of years, GM, Ford, Chrysler, VW, Toyota or others ? All that money will go into one pot, and if Mr. Musk decides to divert some of that cash from a segment that is incredibly profitable/high margin, towards a segment of the business that needs some cash to expand or survive until it too gains market dominance, he can do that.

Tesla may never sell more than 10% of the cars in the world on an annual basis. But I'm betting as a corporation, they will continue to be a money making machine. The financial barriers to other automotive makers to having competitive vehicles on their showroom floors within the next couple of years are huge. Maybe insurmountable to some. Competition is good for the industry and good for the consumer.

But it is 2021 and not 1921 when you had several automakers just ramping up to capture the rapidly emerging market for vehicles for the masses.
I am still very skeptical of many of the auto manufacturers being able to raise tens of billions of dollars to compete in the EV market and not even have anything to sell for 2-3 years. And of the quality and performance of those vehicles once they reach the market.

By the way, TSLA's volatility will undoubtedly continue. At this moment they are back up over 6.5% after yesterday's nosedive. And I'm pretty confident that they will be above $900 per share at the end of February or at least will have been above that point several times while roller coastering along as they are known to do.
 
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Tesla will likely release a $25K EV based on their Model 3 and new battery technology while others are cutting their teeth on EV technology.
And Tesla's driving tech will have advanced far beyond the competiion.
If so, it could be game over.
 
Uber + Tesla, BYD + Didi,..
Same scheme throughout, ignore everything but the pure narrative, don't mention the war :)
 
I dont mind having the option of electric cars, but I do feel that it will drive many business obsolete. Bitog wouldn't even be relevant in the future. Wouldn't need oil change shops, tune ups. Only front end, tires, brakes and body work. It just seemed rather boring. But to each his own.
 
Apartment, Condo and Townhouse is the next big issue. More and more people are asking for the ability to charge their EVs.
Condo meetings are getting requests (demands?) to install 240v outlets or charging stations. Lotta controversy.

Charging at Superchargers can get expensive, especially non-Tesla sites.
I would not own an EV if I couldn't charge at home.
There are people who are surprised when they plug in their new Tesla to their 110v and see 4 MPH.
Perspective buyers ask me about our car; the 1st thing I ask is, "Can you afford this car?"
2nd is, "How you gonna charge it?" You would be surprised at some of the responses.
Not to mention how it would be easy to steal electricity with a simple drop cord.
 
It's interesting looking at the European commitments to EV's, and in many respects, hybrids, in terms of fleet makeup. I recently got an Audi magazine (because of the e-tron purchase) and I was surprised at how short their timeline is on phasing in significant electrification across their product lines.

Mercedes:


Audi:


BMW:


I know that other historically European marques that have a presence in North America like Land Rover, Jaguar, Aston-Martin...etc are also already producing, or working on phasing in electric vehicles, but these companies are now owned by foreign interests so I've not included them in the above.

How many people on here besides the few that already have BEV's are looking at one in the future or at least a plug-in hybrid? Not to get political, but Canada is introducing a "clean fuel standard" which is kinda like a carbon tax in addition to our existing carbon tax which is supposed to drive up average consumer fuel costs by $550/year, which may push some people that direction.


A carbon tax.... "To push people"....

Is that a real appropriate function of the elected people ??

I have a novel concept....

Let people make up their own minds.... And ... Let companies be innovative and creative to be able to either be successful or unsuccessful in attempting to push and sell these newer type vehicles. Though... The there were vehicles built very early on that were electric... Until it was found that the new "bad future" technology was far more efficient and gave far greater range.... Like going from diesel powered subs to nuclear powered....

Is there is a market for these types of vehicles ?

Yes.

However let the people decide what works best for them. Given their individual needs....
 
A carbon tax.... "To push people"....

Is that a real appropriate function of the elected people ??

I have a novel concept....

Let people make up their own minds.... And ... Let companies be innovative and creative to be able to either be successful or unsuccessful in attempting to push and sell these newer type vehicles. Though... The there were vehicles built very early on that were electric... Until it was found that the new "bad future" technology was far more efficient and gave far greater range.... Like going from diesel powered subs to nuclear powered....

Is there is a market for these types of vehicles ?

Yes.

However let the people decide what works best for them. Given their individual needs....

Your incoming is apparently cancelling Keystone XL. "Energy" is a very politically-charged topic and there's a ton of virtue signalling and "coercive" policy, like carbon taxes, "clean fuel standards" and other such nonsense designed to "encourage" consumes to do the government's bidding.
 
I believe there is a market for these vehicles....

No doubt.

I also believe that it should be up to people to decide for themselves what best fits their own needs.


Our two nation's are vast, vast countries in terms of size.

What people want or need in a city is going to be very different to what people want or need who live far away from those cities.
 
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