Ester based synthetics and heat transfer

Messages
33,973
Location
Southern NJ
Found this on the web: If this is true, it can explain why some experience lower temps. with different brand syn lubes. A few people in the Audi forums noticed a 15degree temp drop when using Amsoil 0w-30. My friend noticed a temp. drop when using the same oil. My friend at work has a mix of Delvac 1 and Mobil 1 in his Vette and his engine temps are down at 196F. So are esters responsible for this and is oil temps. related to engine temps.?
quote:
I finally got in touch with Neil Ruegsegger, PhD to talk to him about oil. As I mentioned, Neil works at the Chevron Richmond, CA research labs, is a tribologist (lubrication scientist, his specialty is filtration) and owns a Pantera. We talked for about an hour discussing many things. His opinion is that you may be able to run a synthetic oil a little hotter, but not much. He's had experience is with a number of racing teams. There they try to keep the oil temps below 220. He said 250 is getting pretty hot. Above that, you start to risk engine damage. Another reference on the web (sorry I lost the link) suggested max temps for conventional oil of 240 deg and 260 for synthetics. My guess that if you can run a conventional oil at 300 deg then a synthetic might be good for 325 is a bit optimistic! The delta may be about right, but both temps may be 50 or more deg high. I had based my 300 deg temp estimate on the Olds III-D test in which an oil is run for 64 hours at a 300 deg in an Olds V8 engine. In order to pass, the viscosity must increase no more than 375%. Typically a synthetic will thicken only 10% or so. I figured that if a conventional oil can run for 64 hours at 300 deg, then 30 min at Silver State should be no problem. What I didn't know then was the Olds III test is run at 100 HP and unknown (probably fairly low) RPM. This is a far cry from running flat out at SS. Although Neil didn't know one way or the other (probably because the racing cars he's worked with have oil coolers) I've seen many references to the temperature lowering capabilities of synthetic oils. This may, however, be only for the primarily di-ester based synthetics (such as AmsOil) and Polyol esters which apparently have both lower friction and better heat transfer characteristics. The numbers I've seen mentioned are a 20 to 50 deg reduction in engine oil temperature. While 50 deg seems a bit much to believe, there appears to be a basis for the reduction. In a really excellent document by Hohann van Rooyen "Performance Fluids for Modern Cars" http://www.nac.ac.za/~TJVANROOYEN/Lubricants.htm, (who appears to work at the South African National Accelerator) he states that ester based synthetics have a 10% better heat transfer capacity than conventional oils. This document is one of the best I've found so far. It's 93 pages long and has a lot of good technical info. AmsOil has a number of testimonials to it's temperature reducing capabilities. One of the more believable ones is from a Balcones European Motors in Texas where they reported a 20 deg drop in their own SCCA Porsche 911 racer with AmsOil 20W-50 over Mobil-1 and that a customer reported a 35 deg drop. http://www.amsdj.com/products/heat.html. What this means, of course, is that you should be able to run at higher power and RPM at the same temperature and that if the safe maximum temp is also raised, there is even more to be gained. Neil didn't have anything good to say about Red Line. He mentioned that while he was working with the Nissan raging program they tested three cars in the same race (may have been Daytona, I can't remember). One had Redline, another Mobil-1, and the third Chevron's top conventional (I think he said Delo 400). The Redline engine "grenaded", Mobil-1 finished but bearings were badly damaged while the Chevron oil did great. It should be mentioned that this was in a 900 HP 2.5L V6 with very good oil cooling and probably has little to do with running Silver State in an uncooled Pantera. Bottom line is I now think that 275 - 280 might be a relatively safe upper limit for a quality synthetic. This is partly based on Pedro's comment that Larry Stock has been running at 280 deg without apparent problems. It would be interesting to know what oil Lary was running. I assume he was running a synthetic. If he was using Mobil-1, then there may be some additional speed to be had by switching to AmsOil. BTW, Neil is building a very special 4.6L Cobra engine for his Pantera. Custom crank, cams, pistons, intake, etc. It is designed to run to at least 8500 RPM. If he can keep it breathing he should be able to get something like 500 HP out of it. -- Sincerely, Richard Barkley To Ski or not to Ski, that is the question! Richard Barkley (310) 373-6695 (home), 813-2432 (work) E-mail: [email protected] (work), [email protected] (home) Mammoth Condo 2BR+loft/3Bath - Horizons 4 #186 (760) 934-6758 Condo web address: http://home.earthlink.net/~rbarkley
[ September 29, 2003, 06:16 AM: Message edited by: Patman ]
 
Messages
5,358
Location
Gone
Buster, As I synthesize (no pun intended) all the info I process from this board, a picture is beginning to emerge about which--after cutting through all the legend and hype--are the consistently good oils. Since the picture isn't complete, I'm not ready to "go on record," but it will surely be reflected in my recommendations as members ask questions. One disconnect that still exists in my mind is why some oils which I am beginning to think are the truly good performers, don't always have great UOAs. In fact, to reiterate comments I have made before, I am really beginning to question the value of UOAs, unless: (1) one has more than two intervals on the same oil in the same engine under the same driving conditions; (2) one knows with confidence the accuracy of the lab doing the testing; (3) one has an expert analysist who has been following the trend of the engine/oil combination one is using and can apply an expert data base to the results; (4) one sticks with the oil that shows the best results in one's engine (then the UOA can give real indications of what is going on in the engine as changes occur). [ September 28, 2003, 10:30 PM: Message edited by: pscholte ]
 

Patman

Staff member
Messages
21,988
Location
Oakville, Ontario
quote:
Neil didn't have anything good to say about Red Line. He mentioned that while he was working with the Nissan raging program they tested three cars in the same race (may have been Daytona, I can't remember). One had Redline, another Mobil-1, and the third Chevron's top conventional (I think he said Delo 400). The Redline engine "grenaded", Mobil-1 finished but bearings were badly damaged while the Chevron oil did great.
So because one engine died using this oil, he thinks Redline isn't good? [Roll Eyes] It's more likely that this particular engine would've died no matter what, things like this happen in racing all the time. If all three engines ran on the same oil that one particular engine still would've probably blown. In racing circles Mobil 1 is not regarded as a high quality oil. It's just not a racing oil by any means.
 

buster

Thread starter
Messages
33,973
Location
Southern NJ
Guys I agree, when I post this stuff its just for something new to look at. I don't believe 99% of what is on the web. Mobil 1 is not highly regarding in the racing world as Patman said.
 

MolaKule

Staff member
Messages
21,584
Location
Iowegia - USA
The problem with the post was not engough of Neil's own words were reported. The post is mixed with "he said" and then commentary mixed in by a third party. I would not take this post seriously, IMO.
 
Messages
2,480
My wag...not sure about heat transfer, but it seems like the "quality" of lubricant determines the oil temperature as much as weight. From what I've seen, the oil's inherent "frictional properties" also determine it's operating temperature. Whether it's the base oil or addatives that determine this to different degrees, a good quality lubricant should provide little to zero friction between moving surfaces as only a thin film of oil exists between the surfaces. I believe I've posted this before but never got a tangible answer...how do you determine the frictional property of an oil?
 

MolaKule

Staff member
Messages
21,584
Location
Iowegia - USA
Using standard ASTM tests such as the 4-ball wear tester, pin and disk, etc,, you can calculate the coefficient of friction of any oil.
 
Messages
9,448
Location
USA
His coments were very childish. Without a foresinic meturgical failure study who knows the reason for failure. Unless he magnafluxed, sonicly tested and x-rayed the parts then I would question the build up of the engine. I would also question the failure report if it did not include these tests. Even if bearing failure showed lubrication issues the condition of the whole engine must be looked at to determine root cause. Did somethng start to come apart pluging up the lubrication system causeing starvation or was the oil just sub standard. Granted I am a bit partial to Redline but my distane if for his lack of support for his postion.
 
Messages
9,448
Location
USA
One more point. If 220-280F was limit we would have jet engines freezeing up and turbo chargers would be grenadeing left and right.
 

buster

Thread starter
Messages
33,973
Location
Southern NJ
quote:
Using standard ASTM tests such as the 4-ball wear tester, pin and disk, etc,, you can calculate the coefficient of friction of any oil.
Does this mean Amsoil then being superior in the 4 ball wear test, has the best coefficient of friction among oils, therefore, could lower engine/oil temps?
 
Messages
9,448
Location
USA
buster how do we know that Amsoil does best on 4 Ball wear test? Have we done the testing on all oils? Did we test Motul,Redline,German Castrol/SLX......... We only see what they put on the label! I have no doubts that the lab results results on the lable are accurate. What I question is the lack of alot of other top notch oils.
 

buster

Thread starter
Messages
33,973
Location
Southern NJ
I agree John. I'm asking a question, not stating anything as FACTUAL. I once again came across this in the Audi forum:
quote:
I can attest that Redline resulted in lower oiltemps, even beyond 500 miles on the oil .. vs. Mobil 1 0W-30. I've done back to back with Mobil 1 and Amsoil 0W-30, three times .. each time, Mobil 1 caused an increase of steady crusing temps, from 215 to 230. Always there when cruising at 70 mph on the highway, independant of temps outside. Put Amsoil 0W-30 in, and it goes back down to 215, steady cruising temps. The 5W-30 synthetic Redline sells is actually about as thin as a 0 weight oil when cold. Call their tech line and ask about it. They're considering calling it 0W-30 at this point, but are holding out as they don't feel it's necessary. When fully warmed up, it is also thicker than a normal 10W-40 oil. This is great for our turbos. It meets ACEA E2+ specifications, which our warranty requires.
Makes me wonder...
 

Patman

Staff member
Messages
21,988
Location
Oakville, Ontario
I don't believe Redline's 5w30 could qualify as a 0w30, not based on it's cold cranking specs I've seen. Unless something has changed recently.
 

MolaKule

Staff member
Messages
21,584
Location
Iowegia - USA
"Does this mean Amsoil then being superior in the 4 ball wear test, has the best coefficient of friction among oils, therefore, could lower engine/oil temps?" Theretically, yes, in practice not necessarily. The fourball wear tests are another of those tests used for bench testing oils in order to determine basic characteristics of the oil. The fourball test can be used to determines the fluid's coefficient of friction for the parameters involved in the test. Compare fourball wear tests of Amsoil and Schaeffer's and see the close testing data. Most good oils have wear scar diameters of 0.35 to 0.5. The problem with fourball wear tests and others is that it doesn't always correlate with actual fleet use.
 

buster

Thread starter
Messages
33,973
Location
Southern NJ
Thanks. I guess to some degree, it makes sense then as to why people sometimes experience lower temps. when running Amsoil.
 
Top