Engine wear actually decreases as oil ages

[Bluestream]

Ok, I have your attention. Here is a controversial quote:

"Engine wear actually decreases as oil ages. This has also been substantiated in testing conducted by Ford Motor Co. and ConocoPhillips, and reported in SAE Technical Paper 2003-01-3119. What this means is that compulsive oil changers are actually causing more engine wear than the people who let their engine's oil get some age on it. :

Taken from this web site: http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/stories/mobil1.html

 

[sangyup81]

sounds like a case for the extended OCI

did they say what the cause is for the increased wear? i'd read it myself but a little short on time, sorry =(

 

[demarpaint]

That's been discussed here more than once, actually pretty interesting.

 

[d00df00d]

It seems that everyone has seen that article and no one ever remembers that part of it.

 

[tig1]

Everyone thinks a few PPM with a UOA translates directly to engine wear. I don't believe that to be so.

 

[demarpaint]

Seems for the extended drain guys they want the filter swapped out though. Sort of goes against the extended drain filter concept. So much for the filter loading up in order to be more efficient. JMO

Quote: Based on the results we've got here, we'd recommend 8,000 miles between oil changes on an engine that uses no oil at all, perhaps 10,000 miles on an engine that uses some oil, and 15,000 miles or beyond with a filter change every 5,000 miles. This, of course, isn't any kind of guarantee, and you must evaluate for yourself what your engine requires. One thing we're pretty sure about though: 3,000-mile intervals is a huge waste of resources.

 

[Bluestream]

I did some more internet searching for that SAE paper and found this on another forum about the web page I linked to:

"This is a gross miss-representation of what SAE Technical Paper 2003-01-3119
determined. The title of the paper is - "Antiwear Performance of Low
Phosphorus Engine Oils on Tappet Inserts in Motored Sliding Valvetrain Test"
The test was a pure wear test using externally driven valve train
components. A complete engine was not involved. There was no dilution of the
oil by blow-by, no combustion products added to the oil, and no water added
to the oil. The results might matter if you are building a sealed machine
driven by an electric motor, but trying to claim this paper is a basis for
extending oil change intervals is not reasonable."

 

[tig1]

I recently changed oil for a friend on his 03 Windstar. 15500 miles on M1 5-30EP with a M1 filter. No grit in the OC pan after draining. We cut the filter a part and it was grit free and seemed to be in great shape, so with a clean engine seems to me filter changes are not necessary on long drain runs with the average engine. Non turbo.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: Bluestream
I did some more internet searching for that SAE paper and found this on another forum about the web page I linked to:

"This is a gross miss-representation of what SAE Technical Paper 2003-01-3119
determined. The title of the paper is - "Antiwear Performance of Low
Phosphorus Engine Oils on Tappet Inserts in Motored Sliding Valvetrain Test"
The test was a pure wear test using externally driven valve train
components. A complete engine was not involved. There was no dilution of the
oil by blow-by, no combustion products added to the oil, and no water added
to the oil. The results might matter if you are building a sealed machine
driven by an electric motor, but trying to claim this paper is a basis for
extending oil change intervals is not reasonable."

Good find. Just verified it.

It seems the bad interpretation has been pretty widely repeated...

 

[demarpaint]

I was just quoting the article. I read it a while ago and took all of the info with a grain of salt.

 

[ARCOgraphite]

My question is, regardless of antiwear properties, if an oil is sheared below the required minimum service grade during an OCI ( be it 5K or 10K miles) IF you have a mechanical failure, say spun rod bearing, can the manufacturer zone rep deny warranty coverage due to the oil being out of spec? I ask this since we often see 30 grade oils in the 20 viscosity range in UOA posted here and that doesnt seem to be given much "weight".

 

[cchase]

I find it very difficult to believe (though I'd be glad to have my concepts proved wrong) that new oil provides less lubrication than oil with any amount of suspended contaminants in it.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
My question is, regardless of antiwear properties, if an oil is sheared below the required minimum service grade during an OCI ( be it 5K or 10K miles) IF you have a mechanical failure, say spun rod bearing, can the manufacturer zone rep deny warranty coverage due to the oil being out of spec? I ask this since we often see 30 grade oils in the 20 viscosity range in UOA posted here and that doesnt seem to be given much "weight".


Great question, they could use the sheared out of grade as an out for a warranty claim stating that the oil should have been changed sooner.

 

[tenderloin]

I remember an article by Ford stating the same thing...

Now only if I can finds it LOL

 

[sbergman27]

Originally Posted By: cchase
I find it very difficult to believe (though I'd be glad to have my concepts proved wrong) that new oil provides less lubrication than oil with any amount of suspended contaminants in it.

Unless some of the suspended carbon-based contaminants are of the right size to act like the graphite in Arco's old Arcographite product.

 

[webfors]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
My question is, regardless of antiwear properties, if an oil is sheared below the required minimum service grade during an OCI ( be it 5K or 10K miles) IF you have a mechanical failure, say spun rod bearing, can the manufacturer zone rep deny warranty coverage due to the oil being out of spec? I ask this since we often see 30 grade oils in the 20 viscosity range in UOA posted here and that doesnt seem to be given much "weight".


Great question, they could use the sheared out of grade as an out for a warranty claim stating that the oil should have been changed sooner.


I don't think they could deny warranty in this situation, unless:

- the wrong viscosity oil was used.
- the wrong spec of oil was used (non API SM/SL) was used.
- the oci was extended past the recommend interval.

Hence why a lot of people don't extend OCIs while in warranty.

 

[tig1]

Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
My question is, regardless of antiwear properties, if an oil is sheared below the required minimum service grade during an OCI ( be it 5K or 10K miles) IF you have a mechanical failure, say spun rod bearing, can the manufacturer zone rep deny warranty coverage due to the oil being out of spec? I ask this since we often see 30 grade oils in the 20 viscosity range in UOA posted here and that doesnt seem to be given much "weight".


I wouldn't run oil past the warranty requirements anyway. Any oil.

 

[ARCOgraphite]

Originally Posted By: webfors


I don't think they could deny warranty in this situation, unless:

- the wrong viscosity oil was used.
- the wrong spec of oil was used (non API SM/SL) was used.
- the oci was extended past the recommend interval.

Hence why a lot of people don't extend OCIs while in warranty


I ask because I hear the zone rep may "take a sample" in an engine fairure scenario. The #1 funtion of a motor oil is to provide in-grade viscosity. Next, API requires stay in grade performance. As an engineer I see this as valid reason to deny a claim. If denied, I assume that you would now have to go after the motor oil company for compensation - that sounds like a long and ugly road.

 

[Burt]

Originally Posted By: tig1
Everyone thinks a few PPM with a UOA translates directly to engine wear. I don't believe that to be so.


Agreed. I would like some chemist to take the PPM per oil change and calculate the amount of loss of a particular metal overtime and then compare that with the amount of metal loss needed for an engine to lose compression or wear out its bearings. Maybe someday I may take a stab at it.

 

[Burt]

If used oil protects better than new, then maybe I should buy a quick change oil place, rebottle the stuff from customers that are on a 3,000 mile cycle and resell it as ultra-premium low-wear oil.

Think there's a business opportunity here?!