Engine oil 1968 Honda S800?

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New guy here,

A quest for information on Zinc/ZDDP brought me to BITOG … and now my head is spinning just a little.

Before finding this site I thought I was pretty well set on which oil to use in my old Honda which has not run in 25yrs. But now I’m thinking I’ll throw the question out there and see what sort of opinions you guys may have. So here goes …

Which oil should I consider for my car?

The car is a 1968 Honda S800 Sports car. It has 800cc’s of raw horsepower under the hood turning its roller-bearing crankshaft up to 9,500rpm’s. The timing chain spins dual over head cams riding directly on buckets actuating the valves. Just for the heck of it I thought I’d also mention the factory service limit is 0.002in for piston to cylinder wall clearance (which I believe is pretty close even by today’s standards?) and there are no valve guide seals. And before someone confuses this for another early Honda we’re talking about a water cooled inline four cylinder here.

On a multigrade oil the factory owner’s manual recommends SAE 10W/30 (SAE 30 on a single grade) for temps up to 86F and SAE 20W/40 (SAE 40 on a single grade) for 86F and above. Now living in Southern California it is possible the car would see temps above the 86F but unlikely.

My plan is/was to run the Valvoline VR1 10W-30 because of its rating as well as the advertised increased ZDDP levels which will hopefully protect those over head cams and followers.

Now I’m thinking a synthetic might be the way to go? What about the ZDDP? Do any of the synthetics come preloaded with enough to protect an older engine like this?

Hopefully I haven’t been too long winded. I look forward to any insight or recommendations the forum may have to offer.

JohninCM
 
Hi.

A synthetic oil doesn't mean better wear protection. It has nothing to do with ZDDP. The API sets the limit for ZDDP, and the trend we see is that as emissions regulations tighten, emissions equipment tighten. ZDDP is not conducive to long emission equipment life. ZDDP is getting lower and lower in concentration.

So, an API SM rated, and now SN rated, oil, regardless if its synthetic or not, won't necessarily have a higher ZDDP you are looking for. Synthetics provide two significant benefits: longer oil drains due to higher amounts of detergents, and better flowability at lower temperatures due to higher base stock viscosity index number.

However, that was a big advantage in the past. Now, mineral oils are being refined to such a great extent with improvements in molecular chemistr and engineering that they compare favorably against synthetics.

"Burn off" has nothing to do with synthetic or mineral base. If an oil reaches a high enough temperature, its flash point, it will burn regardless. However, since the molecules in synthetics are created to be identical as much as possible, they can resist burn off better. Usually. However, like I said, mineral oils are improving. It's best to compare data sheets for yourself to see the attitributes of each.

It is very rare for a consumer car to reach operating conditions that will turn this into a significant advantage so it's not significant in my opinion. Race vehicles are completely different. If people think that their super/turbo/high revving engines are reaching this limit, that's probably something along the lines of peace of mind. Every car is different. I just want you to be informed so you know what's the options for you out there.

With a synthetic, you will usually see that longer drains and better cold starting are possible.

Back to your original question. VR-1 is good oil. I looked at their data sheet. Lots of (as expected) marketing in there. It's not as significant as you would believe it to be. A racing oil that they said is good enough for consumers? Sorry that doesn't exist. A race oil has different conditions required. Maximum horsepower. We don't really care if the engine is clean or not. They're rebuilt so often anyways. A passenger car? Reliability and longevity are paramount. More detergents. More viscosity index improvers. More polymerization. Racing oil = passenger oil? No way in the universe. It also claims to meet API SM? SL? standards? And they said increased ZDDP? It's miniscule. There is a limit the API sets. If it meets SM, but with "increased ZDDP" we're talking this:

"higher than the average of other products, but at the limit the API sets"

If I offend anyone about VR-1 or if you work for Valvoline and think I am destroying your product, my intention is not to do that but to explain what is going on to create a better educated consumer.

But as a motorsports engineer, haha we do NOT use off the shelf oil. It simply doesn't meet the demands. I don't know if other teams use it or not, but I know for a fact that our oil is blended to our specifications. Detergents aren't high on the list. But of course it can never meet API standards. haha

You can try different oils. None will destroy your engine or make it run bad. As long as you use the correct viscosity you should be fine. There is no wonder oil...you should try different types. ENJOY THE DRIVE WHEN YOU'RE EXPERIMENTING RATHER THAN STRESS OVER OIL TYPES. the S800 is a classic.

I have a sportbike that spends a lot of time in the stratospheric part of the rev range (~13,000 rpm). It has 20,000+ miles on it. About a quarter of that is on the track. I just use a diesel oil such as Rotella T, Delvac 1300, Delo, etc etc. It has a similar valvetrain you described. I do oil analysis of them. Everything is always looking normal at 3000 to 5000 mile oil changes. Important to note: diesel oil is also regulated under CJ classification. There are different requirements. Thankfully, ZDDP is still at adequate levels. But remember, higher ZDDP isn't a wonder additive either. If a valvetrain will wear, it will wear regardless.

My NSX doesn't have a lot of miles on it, but I just use a regular 5W-30. It provides more than enough protection for the streets. I change it at 5000 miles.
 
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Why not use zMax, together with Valvoline?

See the zMax tread in the additive section.
 
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First off, congratulations on your new? S800. You say it hasn't been run in 25 years? That puts me in the "I don't have a clue" category as to how to start that engine up for the first time. Maybe you can ask Jay Leno what he did or learned through his experience on how to bring one of those engines back to life. He may actually answer your questions since he is a true car nut.

Just to take a whack at offering a recommendation for you, I'd say start with a 10W-30 or 5W-40 HDEO. You might even add some Auto-RX (3 ozs) to help with some cleaning and seal conditioning. I do have some experience with LE8130 Monolec Ultra-Blend 10W-30 that should work well. It's a 10W-30 HDEO that is SM/CJ-4 rated and has plenty of ZDDP in addition to Monolec. This engine oil provides incredible wear control. There are many other good HDEO's on the market too, so have a look around on this site and other sites (is there a S800 site?).

I hope you enjoy your S800 as much as I've enjoyed my S2000 over the last 7 years. Good luck and have fun!
 
In California, in a small engine that revs as hard as that one, I'd lean toward a HDEO straight-30 weight oil.

I'd find Rotella T1 SAE 30, or any other SAE 30 HDEO you can find.

BT, those are neat little cars - you are lucky to have one!
 
That cam system is not an old high performance V8 with a flat tappet cam, heavy valve springs, pushrods, and rocker arms.
No need for high ZDDP.
Many cars use overhead cams with buckets now, and run just fine on modern oils.
A friend used to have one of those 800s, but his was a two cylinder. Honda cars were not refined at that time. Tinny, rough and loud. But so cool I remember it decades later.
 
Originally Posted By: dtt004
Hi.

A synthetic oil doesn't mean better wear protection. It has nothing to do with ZDDP. The API sets the limit for ZDDP, and the trend we see is that as emissions regulations tighten, emissions equipment tighten. ZDDP is not conducive to long emission equipment life. ZDDP is getting lower and lower in concentration.....


dtt004

Wow, Thank you for the very detailed reply.

Let me clarify my goals

First up is selecting the optimal type and grade of oil (syn or dino) for my engine. With consideration given to how quickly the oil will reach operating temperature on cold start. Also how stable it remains over a period of time.

Hard parts for these engines are nearly impossible to find and expensive when you do. This brings me to the ZDDP. I would rather pay a little more for the extra insurance of increased ZDDP than running the risk of finding out too late that my engine wanted it. If that means buying oil with the ZDDP or pouring an extra bottle in doesn’t really matter to me.

My path of research did not bring me to the VR1 because it is racing oil. It seemed to be the ideal grade of oil with an “advertised” high level of ZDDP.

Most of the surviving vintage Honda S-series sports cars are non-runners due to engine related issues, usually stuck pistons. I feel a possible contributing factor to the seized pistons is owners running oil that takes too long to reach operating temperature, causing insufficient lubrication during warm up.

Should I consider a 0W-30 or 5W-30 over the 10W-30? Which brands of oil (syn or dino) contain a higher level of ZDDP or am I better off adding it myself to the oil I choose to run?

“You can try different oils. None will destroy your engine or make it run bad. As long as you use the correct viscosity you should be fine. There is no wonder oil...you should try different types. ENJOY THE DRIVE WHEN YOU'RE EXPERIMENTING RATHER THAN STRESS OVER OIL TYPES. the S800 is a classic.”

Ultimately I guess this statement is what I need to keep in mind.

Thanks again,

JohninCM
 
Originally Posted By: garlicbreadman
what a rare care you have there!!! Jay Leno has one of those and restored it to pristine condition.


I know the guy Jay bought his S-series from and I think he is still kicking himself for letting it go.
 
Originally Posted By: jonny-b
Why not use zMax, together with Valvoline?

See the zMax tread in the additive section.


I don't know anything about zMax but I will look into it.
 
Originally Posted By: INDYMAC
First off, congratulations on your new? S800. You say it hasn't been run in 25 years? That puts me in the "I don't have a clue" category as to how to start that engine up for the first time...

Just to take a whack at offering a recommendation for you, I'd say start with a 10W-30 or 5W-40 HDEO. You might even add some Auto-RX (3 ozs) to help with some cleaning and seal conditioning. I do have some experience with LE8130 Monolec Ultra-Blend 10W-30 that should work well. It's a 10W-30 HDEO that is SM/CJ-4 rated and has plenty of ZDDP in addition to Monolec. This engine oil provides incredible wear control. There are many other good HDEO's on the market too, so have a look around on this site and other sites (is there a S800 site?).

I hope you enjoy your S800 as much as I've enjoyed my S2000 over the last 7 years. Good luck and have fun!


I bought the Honda from the original owner awhile back. He parked it when it developed some brake problems. Believe me it is not just a matter of jumping in and switching on the ignition of a car that hasn’t run in 25yrs. I have stripped down and restored the fuel system, cooling system and the hydraulics. Fortunately the previous owner filled the crankcase and combustion chambers with oil when he realized it was going to sit for awhile.

There are a few forums to link with other S-series owners. But it doesn’t seem like anyone has given any real consideration to the type of oil to use (maybe because most of these cars don’t run?).

You have offered some great suggestions for me to consider. Thank you for taking the time.

JohninCM
 
Originally Posted By: mechtech2
That cam system is not an old high performance V8 with a flat tappet cam, heavy valve springs, pushrods, and rocker arms.
No need for high ZDDP.
Many cars use overhead cams with buckets now, and run just fine on modern oils.
A friend used to have one of those 800s, but his was a two cylinder. Honda cars were not refined at that time. Tinny, rough and loud. But so cool I remember it decades later.


Good point on the valve train regarding pushrods and rocker arms. Still this engine will spin twice the RPM of a stick motor. Thats a lot a valve bumping and cams riding on buckets.

The two cylinder cars were 600cc front wheel drive jobs. The S800 is an all alloy 4 cylinder water cooled hemi with four carbs and roller bearing crank in a rear wheel drive sports car. Regarding refinement Jay Leno said something along the lines of "if this Honda had a Porsche badge on it they could have charged 4 times the amount for it"

JohninCM
 
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