Energy Production in China

[Snagglefoot]

Here is an interesting chart showing energy production in China. It shows not only the distribution in 2018, but the growth in energy production since 1990. Of course by far, energy for electric cars will be coming from coal. Enjoy.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Well ya. In any case China (pop 1.4B) consumes 1/3 the amount of energy per capita compared to Canada (pop 38 million).

 

[OVERKILL]

Well ya. In any case China (pop 1.4B) consumes 1/3 the amount of energy per capita compared to Canada (pop 38 million).

It would, a large portion of their population is still living like it's 1740. Per capita energy use during the time of the Soviet Union was probably impressively low as well, I hope that's not a benchmark we are aspiring for. Heating homes and long distance travel are large consumers of energy, the goal should be reducing the emissions footprint of that as much as possible, not trying to make people live like paupers to align with some deeply flawed metric whose scope doesn't in any way capture the nuance of geography.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

It would, a large portion of their population is still living like it's 1740. Per capita energy use during the time of the Soviet Union was probably impressively low as well, I hope that's not a benchmark we are aspiring for. Heating homes and long distance travel are large consumers of energy, the goal should be reducing the emissions footprint of that as much as possible, not trying to make people live like paupers to align with some deeply flawed metric whose scope doesn't in any way capture the nuance of geography.

Right because Canada is blessed with a small population combined with advantageous geography/climate for hydro and nuclear. The OP's post is largely irrelevant w/out context. His point is to disparage the emissions of EV's because ya know Coal. Taking a closer look coal has plateaued while comparatively cleaner sources have increased. The graph covers 30 years and a lot has happened in China over that time frame. I can just as easily make the argument that the graph shows how the West has exported emissions to China.

 

[OVERKILL]

Right because Canada is blessed with a small population combined with advantageous geography/climate for hydro and nuclear. The OP's post is largely irrelevant w/out context. His point is to disparage the emissions of EV's because ya know Coal. Taking a closer look coal has plateaued while comparatively cleaner sources have increased. The graph covers 30 years and a lot has happened in China over that time frame. I can just as easily make the argument that the graph shows how the West has exported emissions to China.

You should make that argument, it's completely valid.

China has invested significantly in hydro, nuclear and wind and solar. They have an impressive nuclear program and have ambitious plans for a staggering number of new builds, which will directly replace coal generation. One of the reactor designs they are looking at is a drop-in replacement for existing coal-fired units.

I was simply pointing out that per capita emissions and energy consumption is a highly flawed metric due to the reasons I mentioned. We can examine what is playing out in China without dragging that in.

 

[Snagglefoot]

Well, nothing insidious here. Even though coal may have plateaued, I read a thread that said we need to go to EV’s in North America for various reasons. Do we live in the no-peeing section of the world swimming pool?

China’s efforts to go to PV vehicles merely makes it easier to rely on coal using night time generation and running the coal plants hard 24/7. Take a look at their alternate energy efforts vs the scale of their existing coal plants.

 

[OVERKILL]

Well, nothing insidious here. Even though coal may have plateaued, I read a thread that said we need to go to EV’s in North America for various reasons. Do we live in the no-peeing section of the world swimming pool?

China’s efforts to go to PV vehicles merely makes it easier to rely on coal using night time generation and running the coal plants hard 24/7. Take a look at their alternate energy efforts vs the scale of their existing coal plants.

For you and I here in Canada (1.6% of global CO2 emissions) you are right, even if we shut it down completely the impact on global emissions would be nothing.

HOWEVER

EV's in Canada do in have some benefits even if you are just moving the emissions from the tailpipe to the smokestack (I'm looking at you Alberta and Nova Scotia).

When Ontario shutdown coal one of the big gains was the reduction in particulate pollution. Air quality improved. There is a similar improvement when local transport transitions to something with no direct emissions. The more EV's used in-town, the less ground-level emissions there are. You end up with better air quality.

Of course you still have people like the guy I was behind the other day coming back from Lakefield. Truck said "Lil' Smoke" on the back window and yes, yes it did and I wouldn't have called it little. The stench of diesel from the black clouds that came from that truck went right through my cabin air filter and it felt like I was huffing on his tail pipe. I bet you he thinks he's pretty awesome though. These guys, circumventing emissions restrictions, some of them removing pollution controls, well, you aren't going to convince them that they are contributing to local air pollution and negatively impacting people's health.

 

[Cujet]

This is the USA, but it's clear that NG is the way we are going. Of interest, industrial NG use is way down, so the increase in consumption is largely due to power production. As we decommission nuclear plants, this will continue to rise. As I keep saying, solar and wind are not helping matters either. EV's are being powered by more and more NG here in the USA.

 

[Cujet]

The stench of diesel from the black clouds that came from that truck went right through my cabin air filter and it felt like I was huffing on his tail pipe.

I utterly despise the smell of diesel engines. Foul creatures indeed. When one has health problems like me, it makes matters worse.

However, I have a house in PA and I must say that the coal power plant there stinks too. And it stinks up 100 square miles downwind of the plant.

It is truly amazing how much steam/fog that plant produces. Sometimes it just settles down and creates a large low level cloud.

 

[Jack Watts]

It would, a large portion of their population is still living like it's 1740. Per capita energy use during the time of the Soviet Union was probably impressively low as well, I hope that's not a benchmark we are aspiring for. Heating homes and long distance travel are large consumers of energy, the goal should be reducing the emissions footprint of that as much as possible, not trying to make people live like paupers to align with some deeply flawed metric whose scope doesn't in any way capture the nuance of geography.

I don't think this is entirely valid.

Yes, a large portion of the country does live like it's 1740..or earlier! But that number is shrinking--quickly. About 60% of the county is now technically living in urban areas. And while there are some very low standards of living in the countryside, I'm reminded--and in shock--that our own infrastructure is so poor when I come back to the US from China. A very large reason for their low energy use comes down to their public transportation system. And keep in mind, the average per capital emissions per person in China is on a par with the average person in Western Europe. North Americans, Americans in particular, are the outlier here, not the Chinese, So I DO think the metric of per cap emissions has some value here.

As far as China's massive use of coal, this is well-known and it certainly isn't a surprise. I'll say this though: things happen fast in China... For all of their faults, when their govt decides to do something it tends to get it done with startling speed, whatever the consequences... There is of course a lot of bad with the good here, and not making a judgement either way--but it's just my first hand observation. When they decide to move away from coal (and they will), it will happen quickly.

Let's face it, they've spend the last two decades where the US was was during its peak of industrialization--just on a far greater scale. As populations get richer and they're not worried about starving, things like clean air and water start to become more important..

 

[OVERKILL]

I don't think this is entirely valid.

Yes, a large portion of the country does live like it's 1740..or earlier! But that number is shrinking--quickly. About 60% of the county is now technically living in urban areas. And while there are some very low standards of living in the countryside, I'm reminded--and in shock--that our own infrastructure is so poor when I come back to the US from China. A very large reason for their low energy use comes down to their public transportation system. And keep in mind, the average per capital emissions per person in China is on a par with the average person in Western Europe. North Americans, Americans in particular, are the outlier here, not the Chinese, So I DO think the metric of per cap emissions has some value here.

40% of the population still living in the stone age is going to have a significant impact though. If their energy use is on-par with Europe presently with that being the case, then they are going to be significantly higher when everyone is out of the rice fields.

If you look at who tops the list of per capita energy consumption it is Qatar followed by Iceland (~25,000W). The US and Canada are a fair bit lower at ~9,000-9,500W. Norway is right there with them at 8,500, Finland is 8,000 while Sweden and Belgium approach 7,000. When we get down to France and Germany where yes, there's a lot of public transport and they don't get winters like Canada, then yes, there's a rather significant difference at ~5,000.

There's clearly some correlation with resource extraction as well, likely the primary driver in many cases.

As far as China's massive use of coal, this is well-known and it certainly isn't a surprise. I'll say this though: things happen fast in China... For all of their faults, when their govt decides to do something it tends to get it done with startling speed, whatever the consequences... There is of course a lot of bad with the good here, and not making a judgement either way--but it's just my first hand observation. When they decide to move away from coal (and they will), it will happen quickly.

Let's face it, they've spend the last two decades where the US was was during its peak of industrialization--just on a far greater scale. As populations get richer and they're not worried about starving, things like clean air and water start to become more important..

They already are well on their way with their massive reactor build-out. The Hualong One has been a big success (first export Hualong One is now officially grid connected) and they have plans to build an obscene amount of them.

As I noted, there is also a plan for high temp drop-in nuclear modules to replace the coal fired portion of existing coal plants.

 

[sloinker]

China isn't shy about new technologies. They are currently testing every battery style known as off peak storage from their hydro/renewables. Acres and acres of batteries and massive inverter infrastructure. They will drop coal from their portfolio at a rapid rate when it becomes economically, politically and yes, environmentally advantageous. From what I understand, the coal plants they do build have cutting edge environmental mitigation built into them. Beyond what we in the states are just now adopting.

 

[Jack Watts]

40% of the population still living in the stone age is going to have a significant impact though. If their energy use is on-par with Europe presently with that being the case, then they are going to be significantly higher when everyone is out of the rice fields.

I don't want to get horribly OT here, but I'd strongly disagree that 40% of the country is "living in the stone age out in the ride fields". Even in the countryside, agriculture production is becoming more mechanized, and the standard of living has improved. And as a % of population, I'm not entirely sure how much different it is in the US? it's a different sort of poverty.

While I haven't spent a ton of time in outlying provinces, I've spend enough to see a pretty dramatic shift in even the last 15 years.

 

[OVERKILL]

I don't want to get horribly OT here, but I'd strongly disagree that 40% of the country is "living in the stone age out in the ride fields". Even in the countryside, agriculture production is becoming more mechanized, and the standard of living has improved. And as a % of population, I'm not entirely sure how much different it is in the US? it's a different sort of poverty.

While I haven't spent a ton of time in outlying provinces, I've spend enough to see a pretty dramatic shift in even the last 15 years.

I was just using the remaining 40% from your 60% figure.

In Canada for example, our population is about 38 million. Of that 35 million:
- 6.5 million live in the Greater Toronto Area
- 4.0 million live in the Greater Montreal Area
- 2.5 million live in the Greater Vancouver Area
- 1.5 million live in the Greater Calgary Area
- 1.3 million live in the Greater Edmonton Area
- 1.3 million live in the Greater Ottawa Area
- 832,000 live in the Greater Quebec Area
- 825,000 live in the Greater Winnipeg Area
- 415,000 live in the Greater Halifax Area
- 383,000 live in London
- 338,000 live in Windsor
- 336,000 live in the Saskatoon Metro Area
- 236,000 live in the Regina Metro Area

That's 21 million people just in the cities I could think about off the top of my head and larger than 200,000 people. The portion of our population that's considered rural is 6 million; 16%, which means 84% of our population is urban, compared to the 60% figure you cited for China.

I expect rural Canadians are going to use a LOT more energy per capita than those in urban centres that can use the Go Train, subway...etc. Big old farm houses use a ton of energy to heat too.

Whereas I expect there is a considerable portion of the 40% non-urban people in China (again, using the other half of your 60% figure) that are extremely low energy use; quite the opposite of rural folk here.

That's why these comparisons get a bit awkward, because we are discussing VERY different societies.

 

[Cujet]

A very large reason for their low energy use comes down to their public transportation system.

In the car-centric USA, automotive transportation only accounts for 14.9% of our total energy use. Put another way, we could completely eliminate cars, motorcycles and personal trucks, replace it with more efficient public transportation, which is generally regarded as 3x more efficient overall, and the net improvement in national energy consumption would be under 10%.

China, like other industrialized nations, consume massive amounts of energy in industry. Travel is a small percentage of energy use.

 

[Snagglefoot]

The number of registered cars in China has recently exceed the number in the USA.

 

[PimTac]

There has been a big population shift from rural to urban in China as people find jobs and younger people prefer cities. The link I post just shows how many large cities there are in China. Several of those cities put New York to shame in terms of population.

Population of Cities in China 2024

 

[JeffKeryk]

I would imagine there are more cars being driven in China vs America on a given day, as many of the households here have more cars than drivers.
Don't ask me how I know.
I am not sure if this is true in China, but I would guess not.

Again, just a guess. But isn't China considered the biggest car market in the world?

 

[JohnnyG]

It is truly amazing how much steam/fog that plant produces. Sometimes it just settles down and creates a large low level cloud.

I have actually seen "Scrubber Snow"! When the coal plant scrubbers put steam into the air and it falls back down as snow, downwind of the power plant.

 

[Jetronic]

we have a sugar refinery on the edge of town, it evaporates a lot of water aswell. This can cause a bit of snow aswell, specifically because their busy season starts around november