I know the 5/20 debate has been discussed at length on this site but I recall reading that Jackson Racing (which races Honda's) recommends 10/30 as the best oil for Honda engines sold in America. I don't think you'll have any problem using 5/20, 5/30 or 10/30 in these engines. I personnally wouldn't go any thicker.
ELF Doesn't believe in "5w-20"
- Thread starter pbm
- Start date
- Status
Valvoline recommends their 15W-40 in a Honda 3 liter VTEC 2004 engine...on Valvoline's Australian web site. Same engine, no EPA, different oil.
http://www.datateck.com.au/lube/valv_au/default.asp?section=1
Ken
http://www.datateck.com.au/lube/valv_au/default.asp?section=1
Ken
Just to add to this debate, as far as I'm aware no oil company sells 0W-20 or 5W-20 in Europe for road-car applications.
The lowest viscosity oils currently available are 5W-30 & 0W-30. Even for GM & Ford the recommended grades are 5W-30 for gas engines. And just about every other manufacturer, whether they be European or Japanese, recommends xW-30 or xW-40 oils.
The lowest viscosity oils currently available are 5W-30 & 0W-30. Even for GM & Ford the recommended grades are 5W-30 for gas engines. And just about every other manufacturer, whether they be European or Japanese, recommends xW-30 or xW-40 oils.
I view the perfect 5W-20 application as a short trip oil where the engine is run 10 minutes and the oil in the crankcase has not reached the full operating temperature of 100C. As a highway oil, I certainly prefer a 5W-30.
Winter temps in the northern regions also have an effect, as the oil in the crankcase may be 5-10 degrees C short of 100 C operating temps and the 5W-20 is in reality a 9.5-10.0 cSt oil, still in the SAE 30 grade.
Winter temps in the northern regions also have an effect, as the oil in the crankcase may be 5-10 degrees C short of 100 C operating temps and the 5W-20 is in reality a 9.5-10.0 cSt oil, still in the SAE 30 grade.
C4Dave,
Doesn't it make sense that since "they could if they wanted to" (trust me I don't think ELF is incapable of making a 0W or 5W-20 or that the spec caught them by surprise; they are a "major") that they don't sell them because they REALLY don't believe in them?
Honda has no need to use 5W20 oils to improve their EPA fuel mileage ratings, so I suppose their engineers are either ignorant, or want their engines to wear out sooner.
Also, Honda evidently believes what Ford says about requiring these 5W20 oils to be formulated to hold up twice as long as regular dino, as they say change oil every 10,000 and filter every 20,000. UOA's are also meaningless.
Also, Honda evidently believes what Ford says about requiring these 5W20 oils to be formulated to hold up twice as long as regular dino, as they say change oil every 10,000 and filter every 20,000. UOA's are also meaningless.
Blue99 makes a good point here, buster. How do you determine what oil to use if you don't know what the temperature of your oil is? To be fully BITOG obsessive, you need to install an accurate oil temp gauge.
Since ELF is mainly focused on the European market I am not surprised they don't make an wx-20.
On Honda not needing help with fuel economy, well their Acuras, Pilots, Minvans, v-6 Accords, and new truck get a lot less than the CAFE 27.5 mpg average, and what do you think they want to sell more of?
[ April 18, 2005, 03:19 PM: Message edited by: Geoff ]
On Honda not needing help with fuel economy, well their Acuras, Pilots, Minvans, v-6 Accords, and new truck get a lot less than the CAFE 27.5 mpg average, and what do you think they want to sell more of?
[ April 18, 2005, 03:19 PM: Message edited by: Geoff ]
Whatever one might think of the US automakers, IMO Honda would never risk their hard earned and well deserved reputation by running 5W-20 oil if they did not feel it did the job.
Also, isn't it the car mfg. that help set the specs? Bottom line is Elf doesn't want to compete in the 20 weight arena. It has nothing to do with their thoughts on 20 weight oils.
The Elf "response" was just pure BS.
Also, isn't it the car mfg. that help set the specs? Bottom line is Elf doesn't want to compete in the 20 weight arena. It has nothing to do with their thoughts on 20 weight oils.
The Elf "response" was just pure BS.
While I am not keen on 0W20 and 5W20 oils if you insist on runing one and it is an approved oil viscoity for your car or truck get one with an HTHS of 3.3 or higher!How hard is that even a knuckle dragger can do that much! No one is saying you must use a 5W40 or 15W40 oil with an HTHS of 4.7 or higher!!! Use some common sense and try to get an oil in the viscosity you want to run that has an HTHS higer then 3.3 and a decent additive package. How diffacult it that!
Now if someone think that 5W20 is not a Cafe move then you have blinders on!!! Any idiot that read can read an owners manual for an identical product outside of N.America and see that the oil recomendations differ! You can just as easily go to oil sites in other countrys like Mobil Newzeland or Austraila and see tht the recomended oil for your engine or vechiles is drasticly different then what is listed in N.America or you spend 14 years of your life in Europe like I did and aprentice thier as an Automotive Technician and come to the same conclusion.
No one is saying that you can not run a 5W20 oil in your car or truck that is approved for it's use! All that some of us are saying is that it is not the best oil for the application. Their is an agenda behind the recomendation of that viscosity!
I think buster is trying to quell some peoples fear of runing something thicker then 5W20 as well. It is hard to ignore the fact that an OEM does not recomend 5W20 any place on earth other then N.Amwerica.
Now if someone think that 5W20 is not a Cafe move then you have blinders on!!! Any idiot that read can read an owners manual for an identical product outside of N.America and see that the oil recomendations differ! You can just as easily go to oil sites in other countrys like Mobil Newzeland or Austraila and see tht the recomended oil for your engine or vechiles is drasticly different then what is listed in N.America or you spend 14 years of your life in Europe like I did and aprentice thier as an Automotive Technician and come to the same conclusion.
No one is saying that you can not run a 5W20 oil in your car or truck that is approved for it's use! All that some of us are saying is that it is not the best oil for the application. Their is an agenda behind the recomendation of that viscosity!
I think buster is trying to quell some peoples fear of runing something thicker then 5W20 as well. It is hard to ignore the fact that an OEM does not recomend 5W20 any place on earth other then N.Amwerica.
I have a 2004 Honda Civic. My goal is to run this puppy INXS of 250,000 miles. I have been using the oem Honda 5w20 factory fill(made by EM). It would be FAR easier for me to use Mobil One 5w30 given 3 other cars I have require it. I would also have to stock FAR less product. (The other one I use is 5w40 Mobil One Truck & SUV, TDI application) I was convinced by some of the discussions and reasons on this web site, not to mention the VOA's and more importantly UOA's to stay with the 0w20/5w20 but switch to Mobil One when the 10,000 mile OCI becomes due in 800 or so miles.
[ April 18, 2005, 03:55 PM: Message edited by: ruking77 ]
I would say there is an agenda for sure. In times past 10w40 was like the 5w30 of today. Agenda? Yes for sure: "better fuel mileage" The real question is if you run (say Mobil One)5w20 vs 5w30 or pick a more favored viscosity what would be the short and long term consequences??
The other thing is why would EM go through the certification and annuity expense for 5w20 if they knew perfectly well the 5w30 runs flawlessly? My guess is ELF looked at the expenses of the certification and annuity expense and probably concluded it was not worth the "bang for the buck".
[ April 18, 2005, 03:59 PM: Message edited by: ruking77 ]
The whole goal of car manufactures and dealers in the US market is to have the whole vehicle die just after the warranty period has elapsed. Then they'll lease or sell you another one with no money down and low low payments for another 60 months.
Anyone who wants to buy and keep a car for a long time would be wise not to listen to experts touting 5w-20. Any oil that isn't recommended for high speed driving or towing is crap. 5w-20 is being pushed by car makers in the US trying to increase CAFE period. Look at the oil recommendations of identical engines in other countries.
If you want to increase your gas mileage 0.1% just drive a hair slower.
Anyone who wants to buy and keep a car for a long time would be wise not to listen to experts touting 5w-20. Any oil that isn't recommended for high speed driving or towing is crap. 5w-20 is being pushed by car makers in the US trying to increase CAFE period. Look at the oil recommendations of identical engines in other countries.
If you want to increase your gas mileage 0.1% just drive a hair slower.
To quote a GM engineer and take him completely out of context:
I believe a smart person will try to find out what the minimum HTHS value is required for his particular engine, application and environment. If a 10w30 is adequate for an all out Honda race motor, a HTHS value of 3.0 may be all you need for the street in that particular engine. buster, do you run WOT all the time on the street?
I'm thinking any idiot can pick some minimum HTHS and say use anything above that in anything you got and you'll be safe.
I believe a smart person will try to find out what the minimum HTHS value is required for his particular engine, application and environment. If a 10w30 is adequate for an all out Honda race motor, a HTHS value of 3.0 may be all you need for the street in that particular engine. buster, do you run WOT all the time on the street?
i don't belive alot of what the manufacturers say because i know that they are all driven by gov. reg. and common sense especially the knowledgeable people on here and i would no way ever use a 5w20 oil....its 10w30 for me up to a high 30 wt.cts of 12.3 is the tops i would go
For passenger cars, No
http://www.lubricants.elf.com
For racing applications, Yes
http://www.elfracing.com
Check out Elf HTX XT3825 (0w-20)
Renault-Elf F1 team is doing well this year. They won first 3 races.
For U.S. market, I see only one authorized retailer, http://www.elfmoto.com/elfauto/autodealers.php They carry only 5 liter jug right now to offer competitive retail prices. They said that 1-liter individual bottle would drive cost higher. Also they told me that they would have Elf racing oils, HTX series oils near future.
For me, it's not about being right or wrong. If I'm convinced that HT/HS is that important and thicker to some degree is better, thats fine. I'll go order a case of Amsoil S3k. Debating and raising questions about this issue is what it's all about. This issue has been my #1 interest on this board, mainly because it is important and bc the data on here doesn't match up all that well with what we are preaching.
I think what you have here is two ways of thinking. Synthetics by nature have greater film strenght. We know for a fact that oils of today with modern additives are superior to the oils of old. Moly is used in very high levels in many 20wt oils. I believe that when you formulate a lower viscosity oil, what you loose in viscosity you gain with additization. Look at 76 NASCAR oil and Mobil 1 R- 2 oils designed for power and reliability. Both have HT/HS of 3.0. However, they are loaded with additives.
Tooslick made a point in another thread that it's better to rely on the thicker film then additives. He might have a point, but if I were selling Amsoil I'd use the A3 "thick" aspect as leverage as well.
I would also think that bearing wear would correlate to HT/HS. Mobil 1 for as thin as it is, shows very low bearing wear, even in Corvettes.
This issue is not black and white, like most. It's dependent on many things. Oil quality, additives, engine type and driving conditions. I still don't know quite sure where I stand on the issue. I think both sides make very valid points. If however I were to base my opinion on BITOG data, I'd say low viscosity oils with modern day additives are just as good as a poor built thicker oil with a higher HT/HS.
I think what you have here is two ways of thinking. Synthetics by nature have greater film strenght. We know for a fact that oils of today with modern additives are superior to the oils of old. Moly is used in very high levels in many 20wt oils. I believe that when you formulate a lower viscosity oil, what you loose in viscosity you gain with additization. Look at 76 NASCAR oil and Mobil 1 R- 2 oils designed for power and reliability. Both have HT/HS of 3.0. However, they are loaded with additives.
Tooslick made a point in another thread that it's better to rely on the thicker film then additives. He might have a point, but if I were selling Amsoil I'd use the A3 "thick" aspect as leverage as well.
I would also think that bearing wear would correlate to HT/HS. Mobil 1 for as thin as it is, shows very low bearing wear, even in Corvettes.
This issue is not black and white, like most. It's dependent on many things. Oil quality, additives, engine type and driving conditions. I still don't know quite sure where I stand on the issue. I think both sides make very valid points. If however I were to base my opinion on BITOG data, I'd say low viscosity oils with modern day additives are just as good as a poor built thicker oil with a higher HT/HS.
Do you really believe that Honda, whose engines have the reputation of lasting several hundred thousand miles, would specify an oil that would cause the engine to wear out when the warranty {36000 miles in Honda's case}expires?
By the way, I have never been in favor of the US blindly following the practices of other countries. The 20W oil of 50 years ago was good enough to get my 1954 Ford to 140,000 miles in good shape, at which time, in 1959, I sold it. Who knows how much longer it lasted.
- Status
Similar threads
