Edge 5W-30 10k miles '13 F150 5.0

[dustyroads]

My last OCI was about 13k miles and it looked pretty good. This OCI was only 10.2k miles but the engine was worked hard for many more of the miles. It's a heavy truck (for a half ton) and is loaded heavy or pulling heavy loads more often than in the past. Some of the elements (silicon, sodium and potassium) will make you think that I have them transposed... they're not, I have them correctly posted. The fuel is not a mistake either. My previous OCIs have been 2.5 - 2.9 % fuel and this one is even more. I'm wondering if I have a bad injector or two that are dumping fuel into their cylinders. 2013 F150 5.0 V8 119997 miles This OCI: 10216 miles 389 hours 634 gallons of fuel burned Oil added: just 6 ounces at about 9k miles into the OCI UOA / VOA Copper 4 / 0 Iron 15 / 1 Chromium 1 / 0 Aluminum 4 / 0 Lead 0 / 0 Tin 0 / 0 Silicon 7 / 9 Sodium 3 / 4 Potassium 1 / 8 Boron 16 / 60 Moly 67 / 72 Nickel 0 / 0 Silver 0 / 0 Titanium 10 / 10 Calcium 674 / 692 Magnesium 1210 / 1498 Zinc 776 / 814 Phosphorus 548 / 689 Barium 0 / 0 Oxidation 30 / 10 Nitration 16 / 5 Sulfation 35 / 15 Water N / N Antifreeze N / N % fuel content 3.78 / 0 Visc @100°C 11.3 / 10.3 TAN 4.85 / 2.32 TBN 2.2 / 9.6 PQI 8 Particle Quantifying Index

 

[Talent_Keyhole]

Fuel dilution and combustion by-products has started to breakdown the oil, lowering viscosity earlier and now it appears to be increasing in viscosity as it progresses as shown in oxidation. My own oil analysis show significant drop in Boron in GDI engines. I typically see 80-90% drop with high fuel dilution. Boron must be working to counter the affects of dilution. Silicon, Sodium are consistent. The small change is well within the normal repeatibility, reproducibility margins. If you are concerned about fuel dilution, perform a analysis at each 2500 mile intervals, and compare with wear rates, viscosity, TBN at each point. You may likely see a change in wear rate and percentage of fuel dilution. On the otherhand, it may reach a point of dilution and stabilize.

 

[kschachn]

Where is the boron going if it is no longer in the oil? Out the tailpipe? Or are you transmuting they element?

 

[tcp71]

I don't think a 2013 5.0 is direct injection. That started in 2017.

 

[dnewton3]

The wear rates are fine; nothing to be concerned about. The fuel would concern me. Track it over the next few OCIs. It's probably a bad injector. (No DI on this first gen Coy motors).

 

[jimbrewer]

What brand of oil?

 

[Mad_Hatter]

Originally Posted by kschachn

Where is the boron going if it is no longer in the oil? Out the tailpipe? Or are you transmuting they element?

Boron's alkaline right, so could it be depleted by acids???

 

[kschachn]

Well an element never gets "depleted" in terms of being able to be detected by ICP, sure the specific compound may be altered but all the constituent atoms are still there. Either they are being physically removed from the sample or transmutation is occurring -which I'll bet my life isn't happening in an ICE.

 

[Mad_Hatter]

Originally Posted by kschachn

Well an element never gets "depleted" in terms of being able to be detected by ICP, sure the specific compound may be altered but all the constituent atoms are still there. Either they are being physically removed from the sample or transmutation is occurring -which I'll bet my life isn't happening in an ICE.

You obviously know more about that stuff than i do. So we're back to your original question... where'd the boron go?

 

[paoester]

Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter

You obviously know more about that stuff than i do. So we're back to your original question... where'd the boron go?

Cylinder walls, combustion, out the exhaust. Boron compounds are known to do this. Without knowing which boron-based compounds are present, and without years of lab research to investigate it, I don't have any idea why boron disappears. Its not alchemy, or transmutation, or The Carbonaro Effect, as far as I know.

 

[Triple_Se7en]

Calcium 674 / 692 Magnesium 1210 / 1498 Castrol Edge is the only one that offers a recipe like that. I thought Titanium was around 30 on another VOA. Yours lists 10. Maybe I'm mistaken on that. I like Castrol and Valvoline these days...... (SN Plus / Dexos 1 Gen2 brews in 5w30

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted by paoester

Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter

You obviously know more about that stuff than i do. So we're back to your original question... where'd the boron go?

Cylinder walls, combustion, out the exhaust. Boron compounds are known to do this. Without knowing which boron-based compounds are present, and without years of lab research to investigate it, I don't have any idea why boron disappears. Its not alchemy, or transmutation, or The Carbonaro Effect, as far as I know.

Just the boron? That doesn't make sense. People on here in the past have speculated about "boron depletion" but one member contacted Valvoline and they said it does not occur. I have seen some articles that indicate that measuring boron levels by elemental analysis is more complex than other elements due to potential leaching from borosilicate glassware and "retention" in the ICP apparatus. I have an easier time believing than unfounded speculation here.

 

[BeerCan]

I have a vehicle that seems to eat boron as well. Never really thought about it but now I am curious. https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/foru...miles-valvoline-premium-blue#Post5272008

 

[53' Stude]

Originally Posted by kschachn

Well an element never gets "depleted" in terms of being able to be detected by ICP, sure the specific compound may be altered but all the constituent atoms are still there. Either they are being physically removed from the sample or transmutation is occurring -which I'll bet my life isn't happening in an ICE.

Thank You for the information sir

 

[dave1251]

Originally Posted by Talent_Keyhole

Fuel dilution and combustion by-products has started to breakdown the oil, lowering viscosity earlier and now it appears to be increasing in viscosity as it progresses as shown in oxidation. My own oil analysis show significant drop in Boron in GDI engines. I typically see 80-90% drop with high fuel dilution. Boron must be working to counter the affects of dilution. Silicon, Sodium are consistent. The small change is well within the normal repeatability, reproducibility margins. If you are concerned about fuel dilution, perform a analysis at each 2500 mile intervals, and compare with wear rates, viscosity, TBN at each point. You may likely see a change in wear rate and percentage of fuel dilution. On the other hand, it may reach a point of dilution and stabilize.

Boron doesn't drop as fuel dilution increases because it counters fuel dilution. If anything it decreases because there is less boron in gasoline compared to motor oil.

 

[dustyroads]

Originally Posted by jimbrewer

What brand of oil?

My apologies to everyone for not making it clear in the thread. The UOA/VOA numbers are from Castrol Edge SN+ dexos1 Gen2 in the black bottle. Regarding the boron dropping from VOA to UOA; in my early days as a member here, I asked Molakule about the subject. I'm not sure what his opinion is now, but at the time he thought that the acids in used oil were "masking" the boron. At the time I was using Delo 400 LE with 500-600 ppm boron in my VOAs but down to around 100 ppm after 22-25k miles of use.

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted by dustyroads

Regarding the boron dropping from VOA to UOA; in my early days as a member here, I asked Molakule about the subject. I'm not sure what his opinion is now, but at the time he thought that the acids in used oil were "masking" the boron. At the time I was using Delo 400 LE with 500-600 ppm boron in my VOAs but down to around 100 ppm after 22-25k miles of use.

That is completely impossible, at the plasma temperature of an ICP all compounds are decomposed into the relevant elements. No acid will mask anything at those temperatures. If the machine is having problems measuring boron it isn't because of chemical masking.

 

[Talent_Keyhole]

Originally Posted by dave1251

Originally Posted by Talent_Keyhole

Fuel dilution and combustion by-products has started to breakdown the oil, lowering viscosity earlier and now it appears to be increasing in viscosity as it progresses as shown in oxidation. My own oil analysis show significant drop in Boron in GDI engines. I typically see 80-90% drop with high fuel dilution. Boron must be working to counter the affects of dilution. Silicon, Sodium are consistent. The small change is well within the normal repeatibility, reproducibility margins. If you are concerned about fuel dilution, perform a analysis at each 2500 mile intervals, and compare with wear rates, viscosity, TBN at each point. You may likely see a change in wear rate and percentage of fuel dilution. On the otherhand, it may reach a point of dilution and stabilize.

Boron doesn't drop as fuel dillution increases because it counters fuel dillution. If anything it decreases because there is less boron in gasoline compared to motor oil.

If fuel makes up of 5% of the total oil sump capacity, how can you account for 80% of element depletion. Is it combining with the lighter elements of fuel and being burned off in the PCV system. Based on what I have read on use of boron in industry, it acts both as protection from wear and as an anti-oxidant.

 

[dave1251]

You are just wrong it's not hard to admit.

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted by Talent_Keyhole

If fuel makes up of 5% of the total oil sump capacity, how can you account for 80% of element depletion. Is it combining with the lighter elements of fuel and being burned off in the PCV system. Based on what I have read on use of boron in industry, it acts both as protection from wear and as an anti-oxidant.

I can't imagine a volatile boron compound being formed with a hydrocarbon, I'd think it would form precipitates if anything. Do you have anything you're read in industry about volatile boron compounds?