Dreaded Ford 3.5L / 3.7L water pump - How to extend the life.

Originally Posted by IMSA_Racing_Fan
Got it. How is an internal combustion engine different on the highway vs a farm?

Sorry, what?
 
There was a study by I believe Chevron about 20 years ago. They showed that propylene glycol coolant does not tear up a motor the way Ethylene glycol does when leaking into, and mixing with the oil.
 
Originally Posted by Fordiesel69
As many of you know, the FWD / AWD engine config has the water pump internally driven off the timing system. When the pump fails, it spews coolant into the oil and destroys the engine if not caught in time. I am fully versed and have read every article on the causes, failures, fixes, and the political views of using such a design. I'd like to keep this thread strictly on the coolant end of the equation, and any preventative measures / additives.

My questions are as follows:
2013 Ford Taurus Police Interceptor Sedan with 175,000 miles, 322 Idle Hours ( and confirmed it was pure highway use for liquor enforcement) Not traffic / criminal enforcement).

1.) At this mileage, what should I do from a coolant standpoint to prolong the life of the water pump?

2.) Would it hurt to simply drain the existing unknown ford specialty orange coolant out, and replace with the same coolant to at least partially restore the additive pack?




My sister has my mom's old 2010 with 250k on it. Original water pump. I've seen a 2014 that went close to 300k last j heard with no issues. From my limited experience it's not a common problem but if it happens it is catastrophic. Apparently the water pump was improved some time since 2010. My sister's is likely to fail eventually due to age and that will write the car off completely. Then she will be back to walking.

I like the look of those police interceptors and they seem to be reliable cars for the most part, but being someone that drives 35+ year old vehicles given the choice I'd go with a crown Vic. If you're okay with the financial risk that it might fail, go for it.
 
So is it possible the seal on the coolant side is lubricated by the coolant? If so, would using a stronger concentration of coolant, say 60-70%, keep the seal in good condition longer?

Originally Posted by oilboy123
There was a study by I believe Chevron about 20 years ago. They showed that propylene glycol coolant does not tear up a motor the way Ethylene glycol does when leaking into, and mixing with the oil.

That is interesting. Anyone know of a propylene glycol coolant that would work as a replacement for Motorcraft LV orange?

2015 Taurus, 3.5, 44k
 
Originally Posted by neo3
So is it possible the seal on the coolant side is lubricated by the coolant? If so, would using a stronger concentration of coolant, say 60-70%, keep the seal in good condition longer?

Originally Posted by oilboy123
There was a study by I believe Chevron about 20 years ago. They showed that propylene glycol coolant does not tear up a motor the way Ethylene glycol does when leaking into, and mixing with the oil.

That is interesting. Anyone know of a propylene glycol coolant that would work as a replacement for Motorcraft LV orange?

2015 Taurus, 3.5, 44k



First of all with only 44k on your Taurus I wouldn't really be losing any sleep over the service life of your water pump. It's a design issue that affects a small number of engines at high mileage, Ford revised the water pump and engine to use a double row timing chain later on which resolved the issue. If you want to fiddle with the coolant type and concentration go right ahead, but it won't really make any appreciable difference.

I'd like to see a copy of that Chevron study because the idea that propylene glycol coolant will do a much better job of lubricating your engine over ethylene glycol coolant is highly dubious. It might be a slightly better lubricant, but your engine is designed to be lubricated with a modern low viscosity engine oil, mixing it with a significant amount of any kind of coolant will only result in bad things.

If you're still convinced it'll make a difference then Prestone Low Tox, Peak Sierra, and (overpriced) Amsoil Low Tox are all propylene glycol coolants. They're all niche products (since the low tox benefits are counterend by the fact all regular coolants contain bittering agents now) so you might have to special order them at most auto parts places.
 
Originally Posted by Jake_J

First of all with only 44k on your Taurus I wouldn't really be losing any sleep over the service life of your water pump. It's a design issue that affects a small number of engines at high mileage, Ford revised the water pump and engine to use a double row timing chain later on which resolved the issue. If you want to fiddle with the coolant type and concentration go right ahead, but it won't really make any appreciable difference.


Clearly the problem is accumulated wear over a long time. If the wear rate is decreased starting from an early age, the pump would last that much longer. As for number affected... what is the number? How do you know that it's small? As for double row chain, again how do we know this fixed it? Has Ford acknowledged the problem, or announced that it was fixed by using double row timing chains?
 
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Originally Posted by neo3
Originally Posted by Jake_J

First of all with only 44k on your Taurus I wouldn't really be losing any sleep over the service life of your water pump. It's a design issue that affects a small number of engines at high mileage, Ford revised the water pump and engine to use a double row timing chain later on which resolved the issue. If you want to fiddle with the coolant type and concentration go right ahead, but it won't really make any appreciable difference.


Clearly the problem is accumulated wear over a long time. If the wear rate is decreased starting from an early age, the pump would last that much longer. As for number affected... what is the number? How do you know that it's small? As for double row chain, again how do we know this fixed it? Has Ford acknowledged the problem, or announced that it was fixed by using double row timing chains?




My moms car had coolant flushed at the dealer I think every 40k miles. Whether that helped or not I don't know, but it was mostly highway driving and no issues yet at 240 or 250k around there.
 
Originally Posted by Jake_J
Originally Posted by neo3
So is it possible the seal on the coolant side is lubricated by the coolant? If so, would using a stronger concentration of coolant, say 60-70%, keep the seal in good condition longer?

Originally Posted by oilboy123
There was a study by I believe Chevron about 20 years ago. They showed that propylene glycol coolant does not tear up a motor the way Ethylene glycol does when leaking into, and mixing with the oil.

That is interesting. Anyone know of a propylene glycol coolant that would work as a replacement for Motorcraft LV orange?

2015 Taurus, 3.5, 44k



First of all with only 44k on your Taurus I wouldn't really be losing any sleep over the service life of your water pump. It's a design issue that affects a small number of engines at high mileage, Ford revised the water pump and engine to use a double row timing chain later on which resolved the issue. If you want to fiddle with the coolant type and concentration go right ahead, but it won't really make any appreciable difference.

I'd like to see a copy of that Chevron study because the idea that propylene glycol coolant will do a much better job of lubricating your engine over ethylene glycol coolant is highly dubious. It might be a slightly better lubricant, but your engine is designed to be lubricated with a modern low viscosity engine oil, mixing it with a significant amount of any kind of coolant will only result in bad things.

If you're still convinced it'll make a difference then Prestone Low Tox, Peak Sierra, and (overpriced) Amsoil Low Tox are all propylene glycol coolants. They're all niche products (since the low tox benefits are counterend by the fact all regular coolants contain bittering agents now) so you might have to special order them at most auto parts places.


I have seen several 17-18 MY explorers with water pump leaks with low mileage and relatively low hours (police). The issue is not "fixed". I think every single one of our 15 MY has been done , some if not twice. We have at least 40 of the 15 MY alone.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted by mattd
Originally Posted by Jake_J
Originally Posted by neo3
So is it possible the seal on the coolant side is lubricated by the coolant? If so, would using a stronger concentration of coolant, say 60-70%, keep the seal in good condition longer?

Originally Posted by oilboy123
There was a study by I believe Chevron about 20 years ago. They showed that propylene glycol coolant does not tear up a motor the way Ethylene glycol does when leaking into, and mixing with the oil.

That is interesting. Anyone know of a propylene glycol coolant that would work as a replacement for Motorcraft LV orange?

2015 Taurus, 3.5, 44k



First of all with only 44k on your Taurus I wouldn't really be losing any sleep over the service life of your water pump. It's a design issue that affects a small number of engines at high mileage, Ford revised the water pump and engine to use a double row timing chain later on which resolved the issue. If you want to fiddle with the coolant type and concentration go right ahead, but it won't really make any appreciable difference.

I'd like to see a copy of that Chevron study because the idea that propylene glycol coolant will do a much better job of lubricating your engine over ethylene glycol coolant is highly dubious. It might be a slightly better lubricant, but your engine is designed to be lubricated with a modern low viscosity engine oil, mixing it with a significant amount of any kind of coolant will only result in bad things.

If you're still convinced it'll make a difference then Prestone Low Tox, Peak Sierra, and (overpriced) Amsoil Low Tox are all propylene glycol coolants. They're all niche products (since the low tox benefits are counterend by the fact all regular coolants contain bittering agents now) so you might have to special order them at most auto parts places.


I have seen several 17-18 MY explorers with water pump leaks with low mileage and relatively low hours (police). The issue is not "fixed". I think every single one of our 15 MY has been done , some if not twice. We have at least 40 of the 15 MY alone.

So they actually got worse than the early ones.
 
Originally Posted by caprice_2nv

So they actually got worse than the early ones.

Maybe double row timing chains wear out the bearings faster
confused2.gif
 
I have no idea what caused these to fail early. We have a 2011 Fusion sport 3.5 in the family and it was bought used. Long story short I got in touch with a old family friend that is a Ford tech at a dealer because of an issue that we are having with the car and he look a look at it. He calls me the next day and says you know around 80,000 miles the engine was replaced because the water pump was leaking. The previous owners must of had a Ford ESP warranty. October 2017 at 82,000 the whole long block was replaced with a new Ford unit.
 
So, the RWD vehicles using this engine don‘t have this same water pump issue? It’s just the FWD/AWD versions because the pump was packaged inside in order to fit the engine in transversely? So a RWD F150 or RWD Transit don’t have this problem... because the water pump placement is mounted differently/normally?
 
So, the RWD vehicles using this engine don‘t have this same water pump issue? It’s just the FWD/AWD versions because the pump was packaged inside in order to fit the engine in transversely? So a RWD F150 or RWD Transit don’t have this problem... because the water pump placement is mounted differently/normally?
You are correct, however we replace just as many belt driven pumps as chain driven pumps, possibly more.
 
Originally Posted by IMSA_Racing_Fan
Was going to post a thread on this but will just mention it here:. what is the deal with that pink alcohol based RV/power equipment coolant that is strictly prohibited for cars/trucks? Is it simply a fire hazard issue?

RV antifreeze is propylene glycol based, not "alcohol" (yes it has hydroxyl groups). And it has no corrosion inhibitors or at least ones unsuitable for automotive use.
PG coolant never took off - it’s more expensive than plain-Jane green(but new xOAT coolants are too) and the OEMs never wanted to use it. It’s safer to pets and wildlife but needs different refractometers and doesn’t behave like EG does.

Now, Cummins does sell a PG version of their OAT coolant for heavy-duty engines. VW’s latest coolant has a mix of EG and glycerin. The local buses here run either PG or glycerin coolant.
 
Originally Posted by rideahorse
Its not a coolant issue. Its a thin oil issue. This syn oil does not lube the timing chains like a good 15w-40 HDEO oil will. Chains do not like thin syn oils. When the chains get stretched they put undo stress on the water pump bearings. Vibration and harmonics. Thin syn oil is dry and has no body to it to keep the chains from premature wearing. There is nothing wrong with the design. Just look at Europe and see that they spec a lot thicker oil for the same engines. The EPA is making the car manufacturers do this for the last bit of mileage and sacrificing engine life. My 08 3.5 Edge has 235,000 miles on it and just put the first water pump in it. $ 1,600 at Ford dealership and the timing chains are still good. Its had HDEO 15w-40 conventional oil in it since it was new.



I smell major b.s. with this comment

I do, too but the observation, arguments and ultimately proof that thicker oil is better for timing chains was well documented here a few years back.

All the reading I have done on this poorly thought out design indicates early WP failure followed soon after by engine failure, if not caught quickly enough.

Consensus on many sites (Flex mostly) is to replace WP every 100,000 miles (160,000km) and inspect chains for wear at that time.

OP, IMO you are due for a replacement.
 
I looked at a lincon MK? with that high mileage, had that engine (or the 3.7). Dealer said it isn't that common but if it happens it happens. According to him and his techs nothing can prevent it. He had the old part from one he just repaired, and it had lots of play in the shaft.
If any coolant came in contact with the bearings that get play that would be a problem in itself.

He said MAYBE a coolant level sensor in the bottle (ironic it don't have one, some cars have sensors for the washer fluid!) but he said said it usually happens catastrophically on the highway and there is nothing you can do. Maybe install a float switch.

If you are that worried maybe PM the part.
Really, no level sensor? Even old saturns sl1s have a coolant level sensor.
 
Originally Posted by Pelican
Right On ! this car is waay overdue for a water pump, timing chain replacement, especially if on xtended OCIs

So is a chain considered a scheduled replacement part? I've never replaced the chain in my old ECHO, and the water pump I changed at about 280K miles just because I thought nearly 20 years was long enough.

I don't personally consider a timing chain a lifetime item, unless the lifetime of your vehicle is less than 150K. 280K is an anomaly, IMO, probably assisted by the lack of power in the gutless wonder that is an Echo.

I've seen plenty of Japanese cars having to have timing sets done between 150-200K. My dad just had the timing set done in his 2010 Accord at about 180K. Heck back in the day when I had a Titan, changing out the chains was specified as a maintenance item at 105K miles.

I'm mulling changing the chains on my 5.4 as a PM item, at 134K. Will upgrade to the cast iron tensioners at that time.

Oh were we talking about water pumps? Oops my bad.
 
Its not a coolant issue. Its a thin oil issue. This syn oil does not lube the timing chains like a good 15w-40 HDEO oil will. Chains do not like thin syn oils. When the chains get stretched they put undo stress on the water pump bearings. Vibration and harmonics. Thin syn oil is dry and has no body to it to keep the chains from premature wearing. There is nothing wrong with the design. Just look at Europe and see that they spec a lot thicker oil for the same engines. The EPA is making the car manufacturers do this for the last bit of mileage and sacrificing engine life. My 08 3.5 Edge has 235,000 miles on it and just put the first water pump in it. $ 1,600 at Ford dealership and the timing chains are still good. Its had HDEO 15w-40 conventional oil in it since it was new.
Conventional oil every 3k miles on my families 2010 Taurus right about 240k miles when the water pump failed. Sold to a mechanic who fixed it, chains were stretched to the max. Maybe thinner oil doesn't protect as well but it has nothing to do with being synthetic. I wonder if the chains would have lasted longer with synthetic.

You saying "thin synthetic oils" suggests you don't know much about oil yet.
 
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