One of my favorite things about this site is reading the used and virgin oil alanysis. I am no scientist, but I do believe that actual data is better than war stories from a auto parts clerk.
Done with Synthetics, using high quality Castrol oil
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Well. You all fixed him up! I'd be scared to come back to the site after that.
I see both side's of the fence here. On one hand you have someone that knows what works and has always worked (The auto parts guy) and the other, the up to date full of Tech Tube info, which looks at this as an outdated approached to selecting oil.
While, you shouldn't take everything one person say's to be the only and absolute truth, but on the other hand the auto guy was only offering what he knew works.
The Mineral Vs Syn debate could go on for ever, and while Technically the Syn are better, and yes the Min cant go the same drain interval as Min, but in Australia there are top engine builders building big big dollar engines and getting 600+HP out of Small Block Fords and Chevs and racing them for over 7 Hrs, and yep the oil of choice is High Quality performance Mineral Oil, and many of the chief mechanics will tell you they change there mineral oil more often, and always have clean oil in a clean engine. I think the biggest plus for Mineral oils in Australia is there is no risk of having Rolla rocker ware like what has happen with Syn oils. But again, you stick to what you know, and what you know works, and while there is an area for syn, there are areas that Min are pretty good too.
I see both side's of the fence here. On one hand you have someone that knows what works and has always worked (The auto parts guy) and the other, the up to date full of Tech Tube info, which looks at this as an outdated approached to selecting oil.
While, you shouldn't take everything one person say's to be the only and absolute truth, but on the other hand the auto guy was only offering what he knew works.
The Mineral Vs Syn debate could go on for ever, and while Technically the Syn are better, and yes the Min cant go the same drain interval as Min, but in Australia there are top engine builders building big big dollar engines and getting 600+HP out of Small Block Fords and Chevs and racing them for over 7 Hrs, and yep the oil of choice is High Quality performance Mineral Oil, and many of the chief mechanics will tell you they change there mineral oil more often, and always have clean oil in a clean engine. I think the biggest plus for Mineral oils in Australia is there is no risk of having Rolla rocker ware like what has happen with Syn oils. But again, you stick to what you know, and what you know works, and while there is an area for syn, there are areas that Min are pretty good too.
Experience is a real benefit and Lord knows we all get old. I'm getting there.
We have to constantly re-evaluate products and challenge conventional wisdom. That's what experience has taught me.
Keep an open mind.
Now we have the Internet to get real spec. sheets and have uos's and can share ideas.
I know what Quaker State did 30 years ago in those pre-emmission control engines, but it's not remotely relevant now.
Heck, PZ/QS is so popular here that most bad engines may have a PZ sticker. They are the most likely to get poor maintenance, when the owner pulls into the lube shop after 1 year or 30K. It happens a lot.
I think a lot of the bad rap is just poor maintenance and brand name recognition by the same people.
We have to constantly re-evaluate products and challenge conventional wisdom. That's what experience has taught me.
Keep an open mind.
Now we have the Internet to get real spec. sheets and have uos's and can share ideas.
I know what Quaker State did 30 years ago in those pre-emmission control engines, but it's not remotely relevant now.
Heck, PZ/QS is so popular here that most bad engines may have a PZ sticker. They are the most likely to get poor maintenance, when the owner pulls into the lube shop after 1 year or 30K. It happens a lot.
I think a lot of the bad rap is just poor maintenance and brand name recognition by the same people.
If there is anything I can't stand, it's a guy who minces words---Now G-Man, tell us what you really think!
I once went into a parts store. The girl that aproached me had been working at a local retail store the week before. Needless to say I did not have a warm fuzzy feeling.
I ended up teaching a class in the store!VOM usage 101! It is not these poeples fualt. Most are very good natured and really want to help you the best they can. THe companys are not spending money training a lot of these people and the ones that have a lot of experince can go else wear and make a lot more money. If you get really lucky you might run into a guy with a lot of shade tree time that is really into his job and persues it outside of work!
I can remember when parts guys were top notch at what they did. It is really getting hard to find those types of places unless you go to a jobber store!
I ended up teaching a class in the store!VOM usage 101! It is not these poeples fualt. Most are very good natured and really want to help you the best they can. THe companys are not spending money training a lot of these people and the ones that have a lot of experince can go else wear and make a lot more money. If you get really lucky you might run into a guy with a lot of shade tree time that is really into his job and persues it outside of work!
I can remember when parts guys were top notch at what they did. It is really getting hard to find those types of places unless you go to a jobber store!
Thank you, Francis. Some synthetic oils dish out horrendous abuse to the valve train. I've been trying to get that across to some people, until I am blue in the face. Nowadays, I only talk about this valve train wear issue to those "In the Know," like yourself, Francis.
Since 1980 (approx.), I've been looking at synthetic oils, but I just cannot justify changing over to synthetic when they still have issues that I feel should be worked out. If they were $1.83 a quart maybe, but not when they are $4.98 a quart.
Thanks Flimflam, I have been wanting to express my liking to minnerl oils for some time, and I knew that waw going to be un up hill battel. But at the end of the day you go on what you know, and form many here in Australia who build big engines that will race around for over 7hrs Mineral works, and I reckon, go on ya know!
But To add to this:
Even Crower Cranks make a comment in there FAQ section on there web site, that the possible ware and damage effects of Syn oils in V8 engines far out way the slight HP gains and only recommend the use of quality mineral.
A major Cam company in Aust, also strongly advises against the use of Syn oils with
there Cams. I was lucky enough to speak with the head man there who put it
in basic terms, "Syn oils can flow to fast and not hang around long enough
to provide large clearance engines (compared to little turbo fours) (and of
course this is only in context of the typical of V8 design) enough
protection. All testing on there behalf has found more benefits by changing
mineral oils more often than extended drain with expensive syns.
While you may also ask what are my thoughts on a product like Mobil 1. Well technically they are better but what happens in a tube is different to what happens when your out on the Tar and As far as I believe, With the large valve sizes (2 valve cylinder), low (relative) revs (7500) but "high" lifts via the pushrod and associated translation devises, the cam followers, rockers the stressed interfaces on these items appear to benefit from the characteristics of the mineral oils.
I also believe that, the really important thing is the combination of the base oil and additives that go to make up the final product. It's the appropriate additives combined with the base oil that makes the difference. eg it is very easy to make a 'bad' synthetic oil just by using the wrong type or amount of additives (just as you can make a bad mineral oil by doing the same thing). So, it is not correct to say that 'Synthetics are always better'
I hope you found some of what I said helpful.
Francis.
But To add to this:
Even Crower Cranks make a comment in there FAQ section on there web site, that the possible ware and damage effects of Syn oils in V8 engines far out way the slight HP gains and only recommend the use of quality mineral.
A major Cam company in Aust, also strongly advises against the use of Syn oils with
there Cams. I was lucky enough to speak with the head man there who put it
in basic terms, "Syn oils can flow to fast and not hang around long enough
to provide large clearance engines (compared to little turbo fours) (and of
course this is only in context of the typical of V8 design) enough
protection. All testing on there behalf has found more benefits by changing
mineral oils more often than extended drain with expensive syns.
While you may also ask what are my thoughts on a product like Mobil 1. Well technically they are better but what happens in a tube is different to what happens when your out on the Tar and As far as I believe, With the large valve sizes (2 valve cylinder), low (relative) revs (7500) but "high" lifts via the pushrod and associated translation devises, the cam followers, rockers the stressed interfaces on these items appear to benefit from the characteristics of the mineral oils.
I also believe that, the really important thing is the combination of the base oil and additives that go to make up the final product. It's the appropriate additives combined with the base oil that makes the difference. eg it is very easy to make a 'bad' synthetic oil just by using the wrong type or amount of additives (just as you can make a bad mineral oil by doing the same thing). So, it is not correct to say that 'Synthetics are always better'
I hope you found some of what I said helpful.
Francis.
Surely, I find what you say very helpful. These are sad times we live in today, my friend. People spend money unnecessarily because the mega-buck Publicity Machines of Big Oil tell them to, and the more money people waste, the more Defensive they get about their unwise choice of Product. Instead of ripping the heads off the cheats and swindlers, they try to rip off the heads of the good samaritans and whistleblowers who try to warn them.
In the early 1980's, I raced air-cooled Honda 4-cylinder motorcycles, and some of them, like the CB 400 F, you could run up to 12,000 RPM. 12 K RPM is not a lot today, but in the early 1980's, it was a lot for a box-stock OHC engine. I reckon if I did not need fancy Synthetic oil then, I do not need it now in my Daily Driver that rarely sees 3,500 RPM.
Synthetic Oil does have some benefits, but as a whole, Synthetic Oil needs to have some bumps and kinks worked out before it can completely supercede Mineral Oil. Remember the Olestra farce? It was a new non-fatty frying oil that was supposed to make Potato Chips healthy and non-fattening. But it caused upset stomachs and had people running to the toilets. What's the use of having a healthy food if you can't digest it? That's what's happening in the Motor Oils scene right now. What's the use of having an oil that can go for extended drains if major parts of your engine can't get along with it?
I believe the mechanicspeak for the problems you describe is: "inability [of Synthetic] to Cling to cam and other Valve Train components."
I think the best solution is given by the Blends. They have just enough synthetic (about 10-20%) to provide extended drain staying power, but not too much that the valve trains do not get eaten up. Based on what the Pro's tell me, I strongly recommend Schaeffer to you. They have HDEO 15w-40, Racing 20w-50, and some wonderful monograde 30 and 40. After I am done with the Auto-Rx cycle, Schaeffer 15w-40 is going into my sump.
Thanks for the interesting info. In a World of people who've grown fat on hype like bacon on the hoof grown fat on sweet corn and ready for the slaughter, you stand out as a voice of intelligence and reason.
Thanks mate, well I in no way want to come across as any sort of expert or "know it all." I want to make it very clear that I only consider my self a student of the Oil Industry, and that what I have done is gather as much information as I can from as may different source's possible and put it together to form my own opinion.
Where some have focused purely on Technical, chemist type research, and others would only seek out Mechanical or I guess word of mouth comments, I have tyred to do both.
One comment I was once told about thin Syn oils, is that EPA laws are getting harder and harder to pass. Fuel Economy is becoming more and more important. This is why car manufactures are recommending light weight syn oils. The only way we can pass these standards is through these oils. He went on to say, plus, in the car business there's lots of metal to make lot's of engines, we only make them to last as long as the have to.
Where some have focused purely on Technical, chemist type research, and others would only seek out Mechanical or I guess word of mouth comments, I have tyred to do both.
One comment I was once told about thin Syn oils, is that EPA laws are getting harder and harder to pass. Fuel Economy is becoming more and more important. This is why car manufactures are recommending light weight syn oils. The only way we can pass these standards is through these oils. He went on to say, plus, in the car business there's lots of metal to make lot's of engines, we only make them to last as long as the have to.
I don't want the following question to be taken as judgmental, so please read into it only what is intended:
When I worked at Jiffy Lube, the shop where I worked featured Quaker State. The Jiffy Lube 8 blocks north featured Pennzoil. The exact same truck filled our oil tanks as the other store. The joke within the shop was that Pennzoil was Quaker State with food coloring. From this experience, I generally assumed that the two oils were near identical just sold in different packaging. My research on this site would suggest otherwise, but I'm still curious as to what was going on. Any thoughts?
When I worked at Jiffy Lube, the shop where I worked featured Quaker State. The Jiffy Lube 8 blocks north featured Pennzoil. The exact same truck filled our oil tanks as the other store. The joke within the shop was that Pennzoil was Quaker State with food coloring. From this experience, I generally assumed that the two oils were near identical just sold in different packaging. My research on this site would suggest otherwise, but I'm still curious as to what was going on. Any thoughts?
You're most welcome, Francis.
It don't matter to me whether you consider yourself student, teacher, researcher, or just end-user. All that matters is what you write makes sense. And you do make plenty of sense.
EPA? I say, bugger the EPA. Those watery snake oils (0w-20, 5w-20) are no good for anything other than WD-40 applications....spraying on squeaky door hinges, spraying on old fishing reels.
I believe you guys in Oz are on the right track, the Ozzies in here (BITOG) say 20w-50 is the popular grade down under. My car owner's manual says to use 5w-30 and 10w-30, I just ignore the recommendation and use 10w-40 dino or monograde 30 dino most of the time.
In the U.S. Southland, those rural folks who need to have their ride last at least 10 years, they like to use monograde 30, and like me, they don't give a hoot what EPA or the manufacturer's manual says.
I too have a funny pennzoil story that I'm confused about.quote:
Originally posted by mobilelube:
I don't want the following question to be taken as judgmental, so please read into it only what is intended:
When I worked at Jiffy Lube, the shop where I worked featured Quaker State. The Jiffy Lube 8 blocks north featured Pennzoil. The exact same truck filled our oil tanks as the other store. The joke within the shop was that Pennzoil was Quaker State with food coloring. From this experience, I generally assumed that the two oils were near identical just sold in different packaging. My research on this site would suggest otherwise, but I'm still curious as to what was going on. Any thoughts?
We get the Pennzoil GT Performance 20w 50 here and it has on the front MADE IN THE USA. When I asked Pennzoil Australia for a Tech Sheet, the numbers were different from the USA web site tech sheet. Asked the questions over and over, even in different dept's, still got no answers.
To Francis and Flimflam.
Could you post a link to any study or evidence of synthetic causing valve trane failure where petroleum would not. All the evidence I have seen and read about points to the exact opposite. PAO synthetics have a polarizing attraction to the metal inside the engine and are still clinging many days after engine shutdown. Also, PAO synthetics have a film strength of above 3000 psi whereas petroleums have a film strength of around 400 psi.
Are you claiming that roller cams are failing using synthetic but don't using petroleum? What is it you are claiming?
Could you post a link to any study or evidence of synthetic causing valve trane failure where petroleum would not. All the evidence I have seen and read about points to the exact opposite. PAO synthetics have a polarizing attraction to the metal inside the engine and are still clinging many days after engine shutdown. Also, PAO synthetics have a film strength of above 3000 psi whereas petroleums have a film strength of around 400 psi.
Are you claiming that roller cams are failing using synthetic but don't using petroleum? What is it you are claiming?
First, I think you have got PAO mixed up with either diester or polyolester. Esters have a polar affinity for metal, and the high film strengths you cite. PAO's do not.
Hi, As far as test go I dont know of any, and I tried to make it so clear that this was just what I believe, based on talking with people who are in the industry. Als I can say again is the bit's that might make what I am saying.
A lot of engine builders in Aust are not keen on full PAO synthetics. It a Fact, not a mith or a stor, t a high % and any oil company with honest advisers will admit this well know fact. They claim that roller rockers usually suffer from a lack of lubrication in high performance applications.
A well know racing and engine building company also claim that Valve Train parts also suffer from lack of long life with Synthetics.
A major Head and Valve Train component company here void all warranty if your found using a Syn oil with there products.
A major Cam company here also strongly advises against the use of Syn oils with there Cams.
Even Crower Cranks make a comment in there FAQ section on there web site, that the possible ware and damage effects of Syn oils in V8 engines far out way the slight HP gains and only recommend the use of quality mineral.
I believe that with the large valve sizes (2 valve cylinder), low (relative) revs (7500) but "high" lifts via the pushrod and associated translation devises, the cam followers, rockers the stressed interfaces on these items appear to benefit from the characteristics of the mineral oils.
While Technically Speaking they don't compare to Synthetics, this being in a tube in a lab, and more so on the advertising brochure. However on the Tar in an engine I go on word of mouth combine with revenant Technical data. I make it very clear I am no expert, only a student of Oil, and I feel that yes in curtain applications they are great things. But don't write off the Old reliable Mineral Oils just because the broachers aren't as shinny. Sure you do have to change it more often, but I like the thought of always having clean oil in a clean engine.
A lot of engine builders in Aust are not keen on full PAO synthetics. It a Fact, not a mith or a stor, t a high % and any oil company with honest advisers will admit this well know fact. They claim that roller rockers usually suffer from a lack of lubrication in high performance applications.
A well know racing and engine building company also claim that Valve Train parts also suffer from lack of long life with Synthetics.
A major Head and Valve Train component company here void all warranty if your found using a Syn oil with there products.
A major Cam company here also strongly advises against the use of Syn oils with there Cams.
Even Crower Cranks make a comment in there FAQ section on there web site, that the possible ware and damage effects of Syn oils in V8 engines far out way the slight HP gains and only recommend the use of quality mineral.
I believe that with the large valve sizes (2 valve cylinder), low (relative) revs (7500) but "high" lifts via the pushrod and associated translation devises, the cam followers, rockers the stressed interfaces on these items appear to benefit from the characteristics of the mineral oils.
While Technically Speaking they don't compare to Synthetics, this being in a tube in a lab, and more so on the advertising brochure. However on the Tar in an engine I go on word of mouth combine with revenant Technical data. I make it very clear I am no expert, only a student of Oil, and I feel that yes in curtain applications they are great things. But don't write off the Old reliable Mineral Oils just because the broachers aren't as shinny. Sure you do have to change it more often, but I like the thought of always having clean oil in a clean engine.
Some might find this very interesting.
I met an old fella, who was the head Chemist and Tech man for BP in the 60's. He is still sort of active in the oil industry but more so as a hobby and adviser.
He was telling me he owns a XW GTHO 351 Ford Falcon. For those that don't know what these cars are all about, well, there the most collectable Australian Muscle car ever made. 1972 The XY GT HO had 400hp 0 -60m in 6 Sec top speed of around 230kms. And for about 25 years was the Worlds fastest 4 door. There still mixing it with the best high performance stuff on offer today, and will cost in Aus $ around 75,000 to 120,000.
This guy has been using Mineral oil, Valvoline SG Ratted changed every 2500m, done over 1 Millon M in it, and when this year he pulled the engine down for a freshen up, found the ware on the cam was almost un noticeable. This went for almost all the major components. It was only honed not bored because the bore was still perfect.
The old mineral hey! SG rated too!
I met an old fella, who was the head Chemist and Tech man for BP in the 60's. He is still sort of active in the oil industry but more so as a hobby and adviser.
He was telling me he owns a XW GTHO 351 Ford Falcon. For those that don't know what these cars are all about, well, there the most collectable Australian Muscle car ever made. 1972 The XY GT HO had 400hp 0 -60m in 6 Sec top speed of around 230kms. And for about 25 years was the Worlds fastest 4 door. There still mixing it with the best high performance stuff on offer today, and will cost in Aus $ around 75,000 to 120,000.
This guy has been using Mineral oil, Valvoline SG Ratted changed every 2500m, done over 1 Millon M in it, and when this year he pulled the engine down for a freshen up, found the ware on the cam was almost un noticeable. This went for almost all the major components. It was only honed not bored because the bore was still perfect.
The old mineral hey! SG rated too!
I was referring to PAO synthetic oils which do contain esters. I am unsure of the Group III oils with respect to esters.
Do you have anything to add to the claim of roller rockers wearing only with synthetics?
Something that I can add.
In February, I went back to Mum and Dad's place, and Dad was doing an oil change on his Nissan Pulsar (they came with the G-M 4 cylinder that was fitted to the J-Car).
It's got 280,000km, and doesn't smoke, nor use more than a cup of oil per 10,000km. And it's been M1 since new (2 changes of Delvac 1 in the last year).
I looked in the cam cover, and you can see the cam. It's got relatively heavy wear, as there is a noticeable step between the wiped and unwiped areas over the nose of the cam. You can feel it with your fingertip, and not just with your nail.
Doesn't seem to have affected the performance any.
My J-Car has the 2 litre, with half the mileage, and on dino. It's got varnish in the unwiped area. When it's scraped off, you can't feel a step. But it IS only half the mileage.
In February, I went back to Mum and Dad's place, and Dad was doing an oil change on his Nissan Pulsar (they came with the G-M 4 cylinder that was fitted to the J-Car).
It's got 280,000km, and doesn't smoke, nor use more than a cup of oil per 10,000km. And it's been M1 since new (2 changes of Delvac 1 in the last year).
I looked in the cam cover, and you can see the cam. It's got relatively heavy wear, as there is a noticeable step between the wiped and unwiped areas over the nose of the cam. You can feel it with your fingertip, and not just with your nail.
Doesn't seem to have affected the performance any.
My J-Car has the 2 litre, with half the mileage, and on dino. It's got varnish in the unwiped area. When it's scraped off, you can't feel a step. But it IS only half the mileage.
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