Hi Ted,
you posted;
Like my wife says: "You Go girl!"
Surely she doesn't say that to YOU!
Regards
Doug
you posted;
Like my wife says: "You Go girl!"
Surely she doesn't say that to YOU!
Regards
Doug
Does time matter when the oil is still clean?
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Doug,
You trust well interpreted oil analysis reports but tell most here to just follow their owners manuals ?
Do you ever stray from the HDD or Passenger car manufactorers recommendations or do you use analysis to fix a ID'd problem BEFORE it becomes one ?
Do you extend or shorten oil drains with analysis or blindly change the oil at the "recommended interval" ?
Have you ever used a motor oil that was NOT specifically qualified ( maybe improved over the recommended) for your application but analysis showed it to be the "perfect fit".
Based on TC's comments and your blanket approval I was confused.
Cheers, Terry
PS Hey what Ted does in the privacy of his home with his wife is his business, its when he tells me ; " you go girl" that you lube engineers starts scaring me !
Oh I'm a lumberjack and I'm OK.........oops wrong song.
[ March 17, 2004, 11:48 PM: Message edited by: Terry ]
You trust well interpreted oil analysis reports but tell most here to just follow their owners manuals ?
Do you ever stray from the HDD or Passenger car manufactorers recommendations or do you use analysis to fix a ID'd problem BEFORE it becomes one ?
Do you extend or shorten oil drains with analysis or blindly change the oil at the "recommended interval" ?
Have you ever used a motor oil that was NOT specifically qualified ( maybe improved over the recommended) for your application but analysis showed it to be the "perfect fit".
Based on TC's comments and your blanket approval I was confused.
Cheers, Terry
PS Hey what Ted does in the privacy of his home with his wife is his business, its when he tells me ; " you go girl" that you lube engineers starts scaring me !
Oh I'm a lumberjack and I'm OK.........oops wrong song.
[ March 17, 2004, 11:48 PM: Message edited by: Terry ]
Yeah Doug, I guess having both worked for engineering firms (in my case, a biomedical firm which developed implanted devices), we have an appreciation for the sometimes excruciating detail engineers go to in the research and development process. I have little doubt that Detroit operates the same way.
I should have clarified my earlier opinion with a thought expressed by others, that 1) Auto makers know exactly what's going on with the lubes they recommend and how they'll perform; and 2) That such spec's are actually MINIMUM standards, and that of course one can certainly EXCEED what's in the owner's manual and even achieve longer engine life by doing so. That's how boards like BITOG prove useful. But my point was that Detroit has to set reasonable standards, and not attempt to put everyone in $4/qt syn oil changed every 3K miles. The reason they say $1/qt "SL" oil is fine when changed every 7.5K mi is that they've tested such oils in non-severe service conditions on many examples of that engine under varying conditions. My point is simply "they know what they're doing," but one can certainly feel free to exceed the factory spec's and even benefit from same.
"Automotive Powerplant and drivetrain engineers generally know SQUAT about oil analysis..." Really? Here's some anecdotal evidence which might suggest THIS IS ABSOLUTELY NOT THE CASE:
"Car Manufacturers -- Lubricant Influence: New specifications for passenger car motor oils are driven by the Car Manufacturers." http://www.cam2.com/june_2002.htm
"The Japanese Automobile Manufacturers Association...says testing has shown 'that both viscosity and phosphorus content affect timing-chain wear. For SAE 5W-20 oils, less than 0.06 percent secondary phosphorus ZnDTP does not provide adequate chain-wear protection.'" http://www.lubereport.com/e_article000164110.cfm
"GF-4 moves well beyond GF-3 in increased oxidation protection to handle severe operating conditions, such as Las Vegas taxi service, and increased piston deposit protection which will maintain piston cleanliness in the longer lifetimes of newer, higher-performance engines which run at maximum piston deposit temperatures allowed for in aluminum pistons." - Bob Olree, General Motors http://www.performancempg.com/lubricationnews.htm
I guess I'm curious as to how these auto firm powerplant engineers would be making such cutting-edge claims WITHOUT any substantial knowledge of UOA?
I should have clarified my earlier opinion with a thought expressed by others, that 1) Auto makers know exactly what's going on with the lubes they recommend and how they'll perform; and 2) That such spec's are actually MINIMUM standards, and that of course one can certainly EXCEED what's in the owner's manual and even achieve longer engine life by doing so. That's how boards like BITOG prove useful. But my point was that Detroit has to set reasonable standards, and not attempt to put everyone in $4/qt syn oil changed every 3K miles. The reason they say $1/qt "SL" oil is fine when changed every 7.5K mi is that they've tested such oils in non-severe service conditions on many examples of that engine under varying conditions. My point is simply "they know what they're doing," but one can certainly feel free to exceed the factory spec's and even benefit from same.
"Automotive Powerplant and drivetrain engineers generally know SQUAT about oil analysis..." Really? Here's some anecdotal evidence which might suggest THIS IS ABSOLUTELY NOT THE CASE:
"Car Manufacturers -- Lubricant Influence: New specifications for passenger car motor oils are driven by the Car Manufacturers." http://www.cam2.com/june_2002.htm
"The Japanese Automobile Manufacturers Association...says testing has shown 'that both viscosity and phosphorus content affect timing-chain wear. For SAE 5W-20 oils, less than 0.06 percent secondary phosphorus ZnDTP does not provide adequate chain-wear protection.'" http://www.lubereport.com/e_article000164110.cfm
"GF-4 moves well beyond GF-3 in increased oxidation protection to handle severe operating conditions, such as Las Vegas taxi service, and increased piston deposit protection which will maintain piston cleanliness in the longer lifetimes of newer, higher-performance engines which run at maximum piston deposit temperatures allowed for in aluminum pistons." - Bob Olree, General Motors http://www.performancempg.com/lubricationnews.htm
I guess I'm curious as to how these auto firm powerplant engineers would be making such cutting-edge claims WITHOUT any substantial knowledge of UOA?
Hi Terry,
from the Tropics here at 33C and 98% humidity to Texas! I think you understand me well enough, like I hope I understand you!
Sadly the lowest common de-nominator is also the most predominant car owner!
I have also seen highly paid Fleet Managers mis-interpret or disregard used oil analysis that clearly barked for ACTION or CAUTION or INVESTIGATE NOW. I have been involved in the resulting mediation that then occurs called "Who Pays"?
And yes I have taken chances but rarely if ever without due regard for the consequences. And with oils in expensive equipment, NEVER without oil monitoring!
And I have seen people fill up the engine to the top of a valve cover oil fill point "because I thought it must be full"!
I have also seen imported Japanese cars that never get the oil changed in the three years they are used there prior to export. The visual impact of the tear down would amaze even you
I believe that you offer an excellent and well needed service point. Some of the Lab Technicians, Oil Company Enginners and the Technical Teachers where my two apprenticed sons go for theory training would benefit from your knowledge. Sadly we live in a modern world where many Technical and Interpretive skills are rapidly dying. Or are already dead
Keep up the good work!
Regards
Doug
from the Tropics here at 33C and 98% humidity to Texas! I think you understand me well enough, like I hope I understand you!
Sadly the lowest common de-nominator is also the most predominant car owner!
I have also seen highly paid Fleet Managers mis-interpret or disregard used oil analysis that clearly barked for ACTION or CAUTION or INVESTIGATE NOW. I have been involved in the resulting mediation that then occurs called "Who Pays"?
And yes I have taken chances but rarely if ever without due regard for the consequences. And with oils in expensive equipment, NEVER without oil monitoring!
And I have seen people fill up the engine to the top of a valve cover oil fill point "because I thought it must be full"!
I have also seen imported Japanese cars that never get the oil changed in the three years they are used there prior to export. The visual impact of the tear down would amaze even you
I believe that you offer an excellent and well needed service point. Some of the Lab Technicians, Oil Company Enginners and the Technical Teachers where my two apprenticed sons go for theory training would benefit from your knowledge. Sadly we live in a modern world where many Technical and Interpretive skills are rapidly dying. Or are already dead
Keep up the good work!
Regards
Doug
"I guess I'm curious as to how these auto firm powerplant engineers would be making such cutting-edge claims WITHOUT any substantial knowledge of UOA? "
Easy, they hire tribologists to tell them what and how the used oil analysis correlate to their specific issue. Very few are in-house.
TC, they know if they have a problem and they know how to mass produce cars, they do not know how to interpret used oil analysis (oil analysis) and I mean all oil analysis testing techniques to include the spectros we talk about here. Why , because it costs alot to hire me for 30 years when you can pay me for a $10,000 job for a week of work at the R&D labs. And that work had been leaner last few years.
Based on that feedback they build the car and make recommendations they put in the book, many times leaving that BLANKET observation in the owners manual book for years after the lube technology has changed.
John Browning specifically does this work on post production to verify issues, ask him how much the development and production engineers know about lubes and analysis.
Oil and lubes to them are a commodity, development and application of that commodity is left to the outsourced tribologist or lab.
Easy, they hire tribologists to tell them what and how the used oil analysis correlate to their specific issue. Very few are in-house.
TC, they know if they have a problem and they know how to mass produce cars, they do not know how to interpret used oil analysis (oil analysis) and I mean all oil analysis testing techniques to include the spectros we talk about here. Why , because it costs alot to hire me for 30 years when you can pay me for a $10,000 job for a week of work at the R&D labs. And that work had been leaner last few years.
Based on that feedback they build the car and make recommendations they put in the book, many times leaving that BLANKET observation in the owners manual book for years after the lube technology has changed.
John Browning specifically does this work on post production to verify issues, ask him how much the development and production engineers know about lubes and analysis.
Oil and lubes to them are a commodity, development and application of that commodity is left to the outsourced tribologist or lab.
Why guess and postulate when you can take a analysis test and know for sure. Each engine is different and I have many customers that use the right chemistry for the engine that change oil once a year or less and have no problems.
The neat thing about analysis is that is can save you a oil change and the engine !
The neat thing about analysis is that is can save you a oil change and the engine !
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