Dodge kills full size EV pickup truck development

[jghall00]

I have no issue with EVs. I think for many they may be an attractive alternative. I think the Lightning is a cool truck. But I don’t like the government removing choice via EPA mandates and subsidizing consumption.

The gov't subsidizes all sorts of consumption. The farm bill subsidizes crop production. Fannie and Freddie subsidize home loans. NFIP subsidizes construction in flood-prone areas. The Post Office subsidizes mail delivery. Intangible drilling deduction, depletion allowance, and other O&G deductions/credits subsidize oil and gas production. Medicare subsidizes health insurance for the elderly. Medicaid subsidizes health insurance for the poor. The mortgage insurance deduction, albeit reduced, subsidizes home ownership.

This isn't directed at you specifically, but I get the impression that many people are ok with gov't subsidies unless the subsidy goes to something they don't benefit from.

 

[JeffKeryk]

I have no issue with EVs. I think for many they may be an attractive alternative. I think the Lightning is a cool truck. But I don’t like the government removing choice via EPA mandates and subsidizing consumption.

Our government subsidizes and has subsidized lots of cars. And fuel, etc.
Full disclosure, I got a tax credit for our 1st EV but not the 2nd. And the 1st purchase in Dec 2018 was influenced by the tax credit.

 

[SwampSurvivor]

I have a Lightning XLT. And you can find a Lightning Pro used, which is an even lesser model with vinyl seats.

So...much...misinformation.

Similar to when they offered the diesel a few years ago, you had to be a fleet customer to get them in a reasonable model.

Not that I'm shopping for pickups anyway with how much they cost. I have been eyeing the Kia Niro EV, however.

 

[jghall00]

Similar to when they offered the diesel a few years ago, you had to be a fleet customer to get them in a reasonable model.

Not that I'm shopping for pickups anyway with how much they cost. I have been eyeing the Kia Niro EV, however.

Check out the Nissan Ariya. It's a great deal under 25K used. Especially if you can get the 4K credit.

 

[alarmguy]

My insurance is not higher.

How are tires more than HD Diesel trucks which I see a lot of around my house? The HD diesels weigh more and have more torque than my Lightning. The load ratings will need to be higher than mine will. The tire issue is, pun intended, tired.

I leased my Lightning for $299/mo, how is that "significant vehicle cost". Maybe a little irrational on Ford's part but I could not get a gas truck this cheap. The deals on EVs are out there if people will just look. I would not set foot on a dealer lot though without knowing what's out there and how to apply it to your deal. But that goes for gas trucks also.

And there's nothing about a gas truck that would make me want to go back other than, it's faster to fill up on a long trip. But I don't go on that many long trips anyway and would not switch back for that reason.

Look I mean, if they really don't work for you, that's fine. I don't begruge anyone. There are people like hotshot drivers that need to make multiple 1000+ mile trips a week and for them an EV truck is a poor fit and probably will be until battery density greatly improves.

But for most homeowners, EVs will work great, but a lot of people are not willing to consider them because of the FUD they see on the Internet. FUD funded by whom, is the question we should be

I think we both agree vehicles of all types work for some people and not others.
I’m not sure why you think I’m begrudging anything

I’m just stating facts. The population as a whole pays more for car insurance on an electric vehicle and will pay more for tires on an electric vehicle.

 

[alarmguy]

I have no issue with EVs. I think for many they may be an attractive alternative. I think the Lightning is a cool truck. But I don’t like the government removing choice via EPA mandates and subsidizing consumption.

Exactly

 

[alarmguy]

Our government subsidizes and has subsidized lots of cars. And fuel, etc.
Full disclosure, I got a tax credit for our 1st EV but not the 2nd. And the 1st purchase in Dec 2018 was influenced by the tax credit.

This is irrelevant.
If the government was going to give $7500 to purchase a car, it should’ve been for any American car not just electric cars.
I think we need to forget about this whole subsidizing other aspects of the industry, which is ridiculous. It’s a terrible argument because the electricity to charge an electric car is also subsidized.

The fact remains $7500 of taxpayer money was given to people to use as a down payment in order to buy an electric car.

I’m in really bad mood today because I had my wife watching the outdrive on our boat make sure the Cooling water muffs did not slip off as I was running the engine. Well guess what?
Now I have a burnt out water pump
There goes another thousand dollars LOL

 

[4wd]

Rev2 will be Revolting …

 

[RBT]

I

The gov't subsidizes all sorts of consumption. The farm bill subsidizes crop production. Fannie and Freddie subsidize home loans. NFIP subsidizes construction in flood-prone areas. The Post Office subsidizes mail delivery. Intangible drilling deduction, depletion allowance, and other O&G deductions/credits subsidize oil and gas production. Medicare subsidizes health insurance for the elderly. Medicaid subsidizes health insurance for the poor. The mortgage insurance deduction, albeit reduced, subsidizes home ownership.

This isn't directed at you specifically, but I get the impression that many people are ok with gov't subsidies unless the subsidy goes to something they don't benefit from.

This is a fair point. I don’t like it generally, but particularly when it is a pure consumption item. An argument can be made that subsidizing other things you mention has a stronger public interest finding (eg health insurance for the poor, essential infrastructure) and in those cases I find it far less problematic. But I would like to see the government out of the business of picking winners and losers generally.

Housing is an interesting case because it is a consumption item but having a nation of homeowners, I think, is good for democracy. That argument applied to other classes of consumption is harder for me to accept, and even housing subsidies can be taken too far (see eg 2008 financial crisis).

In any event, Right now the politicians pick winners and losers, and there is no real principle to it other than how it aligns with them ideologically and who gives them campaign contributions.

Take care, interesting discussion.

 

[jghall00]

I’m just stating facts. The population as a whole pays more for car insurance on an electric vehicle and will pay more for tires on an electric vehicle.

To my knowledge, EVs do generally cost more to insure...but part of that is because the cars themselves are often more expensive. This will decline over time as parts and labor familiarity with the vehicles increases. The tire thing is overblown. It's mostly driving habits that increase the tire wear. Instant torque is somewhat addictive.

New technology is always more expensive. There's a reason why TV repairmen barely exists as a profession anymore. It's often cheaper to just chuck the set and get a new one. That wasn't always the case. The same will apply to EVs. Battery costs are declining very quickly. Eventually they will be much cheaper than ICE and with fewer moving parts that insurance premium will shift.

The fact remains $7500 of taxpayer money was given to people to use as a down payment in order to buy an electric car.

This isn't technically correct. The $7,500 was revised to enable use as point-of-sale, but the original application was an offset against income tax paid. In effect, the gov't was enabling taxpayers to reduce their personal tax liability and put the money towards an EV purchase. The credit has never been refundable. Even a transfer to the dealership results in the dealership offsetting its own tax. So if by "taxpayer" you mean the person paying income tax, that is correct. If you mean a transfer from many taxpayers to one...that's not correct. I mean, last I checked it was my money, not the government's. My neighbor buys a 6,000+ GVWR vehicle every year because can deduct it on his tax return. And no, they're definitely not used for business. No one is running around shaking their fists at business owners taking advantage of this feature of the internal revenue code, so why reserve all the opprobrium for EV owners?

The idea behind the credit is similar to that of encouraging homeownership. We wanted domestic production of electric vehicles because it would create jobs and help build a supply chain for a technology that is clearly the future of personal transportation. Otherwise, China would have owned the market. We subsidized EV sales...and China still owns the market. But at least we have a toe in, and we're building a supply chain that is not 100% reliant on China. US Automakers are still losing foreign markets to China's subsidized competition, but at least we're still competitive here at home, in part due to efforts to ensure we have a domestic supply chain. In effect, both incentives encourage investment and ownership.

 

[Brons2]

Similar to when they offered the diesel a few years ago, you had to be a fleet customer to get them in a reasonable model.

Not that I'm shopping for pickups anyway with how much they cost. I have been eyeing the Kia Niro EV, however.

You didn't have to be a fleet customer to get my $299 lease on the 24 Lightning XLT. I know of several other people who got the same deal.

 

[RBT]

[snip] that is clearly the future of personal transportation.

Respectfully, how is it that people are so certain that they know what the future will be? As I said earlier I actually have no issue with EVs and I like the lightning. But why is it that people think that the government has this ability to know what is best? I will acknowledge that it is certainly possible EVs will take over. It seems probably they will remain part of the transportation mix, and perhaps take more market share. But at the same
time we have a situation where there are people living in states where the grid operators have to
Import significant amounts of power from other states, and there are instances where grid operators have publicly warned of grid instability. And we have little demonstrated ability as a country to deliver infrastructure like power plants in anything resembling a timely, cost effective fashion. But yet, like the old joke where the economist assumes a can opener when stuck on a desert island with canned food but no can opener, we are to assume these issues away, and think that it’s no biggie if everyone comes home after work and plugs in a car?

I am not trying to argue with you or anyone, but I have lived enough years to have learned that predicting the future is hard, and of all the people or organizations who can make such bets accurately, government is among the least able.

 

[RBT]

You didn't have to be a fleet customer to get my $299 lease on the 24 Lightning XLT. I know of several other people who got the same deal.

My wife likes the “frunk” a great deal.

 

[alarmguy]

You didn't have to be a fleet customer to get my $299 lease on the 24 Lightning XLT. I know of several other people who got the same deal.

We must remember, these deals are to get cars off of the lots that have not sold.
In addition $7500 rolled in to the lease deal is from the taxpayers and that goes away the end of September.

 

[alarmguy]

To my knowledge, EVs do generally cost more to insure...but part of that is because the cars themselves are often more expensive. This will decline over time as parts and labor familiarity with the vehicles increases. The tire thing is overblown. It's mostly driving habits that increase the tire wear. Instant torque is somewhat addictive.

..

first off you’re speculating on the future of insurance rates. Only claims history will determine future rates.
An electric vehicle is inherently more expensive to repair. Any slightest ding or damage to the battery pack is an enormous cost.

I’m not gonna get into the tire thing except from what I understand you need more heavy load tires for the additional weight. However, I don’t know much more about it than what I read and honestly, it doesn’t matter to me.

We can agree that instant talk is definitely addictive. Just like the instant torque of gasoline sports cars in the past significantly adds to insurance cost. Once again, it all comes down to claims.

 

[alarmguy]

The gov't subsidizes all sorts of consumption. The farm bill subsidizes crop production. Fannie and Freddie subsidize home loans. NFIP subsidizes construction in flood-prone areas. The Post Office subsidizes mail delivery. Intangible drilling deduction, depletion allowance, and other O&G deductions/credits subsidize oil and gas production. Medicare subsidizes health insurance for the elderly. Medicaid subsidizes health insurance for the poor. The mortgage insurance deduction, albeit reduced, subsidizes home ownership.

This isn't directed at you specifically, but I get the impression that many people are ok with gov't subsidies unless the subsidy goes to something they don't benefit from.

So where is my $7500 check for buying a gasoline vehicle?
This argument is so ridiculous. It’s not even worth going into.
Would you like to get subsidies for electric plants, transmission lines, and power grid as well?
Who’s gonna pay for upgrading the power grid for 200 million cars if I still drive a gasoline one does that mean my electric ratesrate will stay low?

Really come on now
You can’t justify any of this by directly, giving the consumer $7500 to buy one vehicle over another

 

[jghall00]

Respectfully, how is it that people are so certain that they know what the future will be?

Pure conjecture! I could be wrong...but I own both ICE and Electric so I don't think I am.

Import significant amounts of power from other states, and there are instances where grid operators have publicly warned of grid instability. And we have little demonstrated ability as a country to deliver infrastructure like power plants in anything resembling a timely, cost effective fashion.

The vast majority of EV owners charge at night when there is a surplus of electricity. I have a free nights plan because Texas has a surplus of wind energy at night. All the talk of grid instability from EVs was FUD from a certain demographic. If you want to worry about the grid, datacenters are much bigger concern.

The One Big Beautiful Bill was One Big Beautiful Mistake. It kneecapped solar and wind at a time when we're seeing tremendous demand growth due to data center expansion. having said that, we'll still see abundant wind and solar deployed because they're cheaper and less time consuming to deploy. But the costs to do so will increase. As for natural gas...sounds great, but takes much longer to deploy and there's an extensive backlog for the hardware. Nuclear is costly and NIMBYs abound. Plus, the tariffs aren't doing anyone any favors. Electricity prices will definitely increase in the near future, but datacenters will be the culprit, not EVs.

I am not trying to argue with you or anyone, but I have lived enough years to have learned that predicting the future is hard, and of all the people or organizations who can make such bets accurately, government is among the least able.

The future is already here...it's just not evenly distributed. As battery costs decline, electrification will become more viable for consumer transportation. The biggest knocks on electrification...charging infrastructure (expanding), costs (declining), range (increasing), charging speed (increasing). Even without the credit the 35K Chevy Equinox EV is compelling. Now we have the new Chevy Bolt and Nissan Leaf, and Ford plans to introduce a cheaper 30K platform.

If you think ICE has and will continue to improve at the rate of electric vehicles, I can't say anything to change your mind. But if you acknowledge the leaps that have been made in electrification, like sub 20 minute charging, 400+ mile range, and reduced costs, then you'll recognize that the writing is on the wall.

first off you’re speculating on the future of insurance rates. Only claims history will determine future rates.
An electric vehicle is inherently more expensive to repair. Any slightest ding or damage to the battery pack is an enormous cost.

Your statement presumes that a substantial number of insurance repairs relate to battery damage. I don't know if that is true. Even if it is, battery costs have declined substantially and continue to do so. Thus, it's reasonable to assume battery repair costs will decline in the future as well.

 

[alarmguy]

Pure conjecture! I could be wrong...but I own both ICE and Electric so I don't think I am.



The vast majority of EV owners charge at night when there is a surplus of electricity. I have a free nights plan because Texas has a surplus of wind energy at night. All the talk of grid instability from EVs was FUD from a certain demographic. If you want to worry about the grid, datacenters are much bigger concern.

The One Big Beautiful Bill was One Big Beautiful Mistake. It kneecapped solar and wind at a time when we're seeing tremendous demand growth due to data center expansion. having said that, we'll still see abundant wind and solar deployed because they're cheaper and less time consuming to deploy. But the costs to do so will increase. As for natural gas...sounds great, but takes much longer to deploy and there's an extensive backlog for the hardware. Nuclear is costly and NIMBYs abound. Plus, the tariffs aren't doing anyone any favors. Electricity prices will definitely increase in the near future, but datacenters will be the culprit, not EVs.


The future is already here...it's just not evenly distributed. As battery costs decline, electrification will become more viable for consumer transportation. The biggest knocks on electrification...charging infrastructure (expanding), costs (declining), range (increasing), charging speed (increasing). Even without the credit the 35K Chevy Equinox EV is compelling. Now we have the new Chevy Bolt and Nissan Leaf, and Ford plans to introduce a cheaper 30K platform.

If you think ICE has and will continue to improve at the rate of electric vehicles, I can't say anything to change your mind. But if you acknowledge the leaps that have been made in electrification, like sub 20 minute charging, 400+ mile range, and reduced costs, then you'll recognize that the writing is on the wall.

Your statement presumes that a substantial number of insurance repairs relate to battery damage. I don't know if that is true. Even if it is, battery costs have declined substantially and continue to do so. Thus, it's reasonable to assume battery repair costs will decline in the future as well.

There’s a lot of presumptions being made here.
It’s pretty well-known in here. I have nothing against electric vehicles, except paying for other people to buy them.
I also like to see facts and figures. As of right now it’s pretty darn expensive to repair an electric vehicle.

I wish speculation was always correct as an investor in Wall Street PeAcE !

 

[johnmyster]

This isn't directed at you specifically, but I get the impression that many people are ok with gov't subsidies unless the subsidy goes to something they don't benefit from.

And sometimes people that like subsidies do so just because they benefit from the thing being subsidized.

Some of us are against subsidies, and really all of them. We feel like the government should reduce it's hand in things rather than always looking for new "nice things" to meddle in. The benefiters should be the payers, rather than voting to benefit yourself from publicly derived monies. Third party payers rarely make any system better.

 

[paqza]

From what I have seen, the cancelled Dodge truck was to be (@ this time) the only EREV vehicle offered for sale in the USA.
I am certain there are several private businesses and personal uses which some have deemed they have a want or need an "electric truck" in their lives. Still, I do not think there will come a time in many of our lives that sees a massive need for fleets of EV trucks to be built or bought up by enough truck owners to make it a profitable product for car makers. Sedans for city use? Sure that could flourish one day.

We're going to see rapid electrification relatively quickly once the anchors and lead weights tied to EV infrastructure buildout are removed.