Do Oil Companies Lurk @ BITOG

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13,223
Location
ROCHESTER, NY
I was just wondering if the oil/oil filter companies read BITOG as well as other sites. BITOG is the best site that I have come across thus far and I think that it could help to keep the oil companies on their toes, (that we are watching them). Look at what we have all learned as-far-as, which oils/filters could be better than others. Which oils/filters are just simply over priced, or the bargan of their type. We've all seen for example, the difference between SL GF-3 and SM GF-4, especially in the lower ZINC/higher MOLY levels and also, just how robust that most of the 5W20 oils are. And we have also seen some oils like Mobil 1 using a weaker addative package in some grades, and Valvoline All Climate starting to add MOLY. What do you all think ???
 
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8,711
Location
Nothern USA
For a while we had a guy that said he worked for Pennzoil. Of course, Filter Guy claims he used to work for Champion Labs. On the other hand, with some of the vehement bashing of some products, it leads me to believe some posters have some interest in other products. Most employees are not authorized to speak for their employer. A good marketing type might lurk here to see what we are thinking. The technical people already know what the competition are doing. Might comment, maybe the mods cleaned things up a little, but I am not seeing the frothing at the mouth over certain products recently.
 
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3,845
From my take many of the companies do have a presence here. I was surprized recently by a STLE colleague at a major company mentioning this site during a business meeting.
 

salesrep

$100 Site Donor
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3,630
Location
lllinois
I agree Terry. I am certain that many follow this board to one degree or another. Some are lurkers, some members, and a few frequent posters.
 
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47,765
Location
Duvall WA - Pacific NW USA
Al doesn't Alan does. Just kidding - but Alan is directing the company in a more responsive way. More so than Al "panther pizz" Amatuzio ever did. Terry - Remember my letter to Al?
quote:
Al Amatuzio May 25, 2003 Amsoil Building Superior Building Superior, WI Dear Al, I have been an Amsoil dealer for a little over three years and have gained some fascinating information about the great world of lubricants. My reason for writing this letter directly to you is; to help Amsoil, and hopefully, eventually myself via improved products. As you will see this is a compilation of information. Chemistry has always been somewhat of an interest for me, however lubricants have grabbed my full concentration. I also want to tell you two reasons I’m not writing this letter: 1) I am not writing this to get anyone at Amsoil in trouble or stir the personnel side of things. 2) And despite my feelings of how difficult it is to make any money as a downline dealer, I’m actually not writing to complain about the tiny margins, small commission credits, the necessity of a motivated sales force to buy product literature, the slow dissemination of critical information to dealers or the saturated market (# dealers/area). You would basically tell me what you have told the others with these concerns: “Try harder”, and of course you would be essentially correct. Please take the time to read attached “e-mail string”. It began as a simple “check this issue out ” but after some soul searching, and deep thought, led me to the conclusion that I have information that could at the very least, help improve Amsoil. As you will find out I have been a site sponsor at Bob Is The Oil Guy.com as have two other Amsoil dealers. I know it is not the Amsoil policy to engage in “chat room” forums, however I can and have made some statements on this: 1) sometimes you have to go were the dragons are to fight dragons (meaning: an oil website is growing and succeeding, sometimes biased sometimes not. But why turn our backs and have zero input to this?) and 2) you can learn a lot from some chat rooms (the Bob Is The Oil Guy.com is an EXCELLENT forum with real practical technical meat – Again, why just say we don’t want to play?) Hopefully you will see some logic and wisdom in this, regardless of the history with Bob Winters and Schaeffers. In the email, Ed Kellerman asks for proof. He is spot-on to ask this, but I cannot give you a one page note that will prove everything. I will take one issue at a time and try to layout the facts as I know them. These things cannot possibly be surprises to you and thusly you should have private backing information for each item. He also asks “WHO” is performing “these tests”. Not all the information I will provides is from ASTM (or other “certified” methods), but I doubt every improvement the Ferrari F1 team does to their car is proven with a certified test – but it is proven, one way or another. I can make the case that sometimes we ALL haven’t proven everything necessary, including Amsoil. Foam Air Filters degrading and planar air filters with improper fit: Degrading: Certainly this is not new news. Filters have fallen apart in less than 10,000 miles (before cleaning). Filters fall apart after one clean using a Amsoil recommended non-harmful cleaning method. I cannot say a lot about this topic other than Amsoil will replace them if customers scream loud enough. Lately there have been a couple cases that the customer did get fairly prompt replacements. Dealers need to know the magnitude of the problem. Certain filters were not as good? Was a date range of improper foam used (bad material)? This one is difficult – because I have seen filters last a long time. Mostly filters close to engine heat have the most issues, but not all. Have someone check your records and check the Air Filter forum at www.bobistheoilguy.com as well as the reputation of foam air filters in general at other car related web sites. To truly solve this one, we will need to know the root cause. Improper fit: Edge seals on planar filters that require a molded edge in a seat for proper seal. An example is the Volvo 850 callout for a TS118. I will not sell these, mainly because there are dirt/unfiltered air pathways. Often the advice is to seat it in the airbox, then (as normal) clamp the lid on. The problem is that the lid is the intake side and the lack of seal is downstream from the filter. I believe the root cause was improper specifying for a given application. Obsoleting the special order filters went a long way to solve this issue, but a few of these improper applications still exist. Dual Remote Oil Filter I have sold a grand total of one of these. I do not have one on any of my cars, but I do have a dual remote filter set-up, non Amsoil, non bypass – just two SDF-15’s or FL-1A’s, so I do have some practical familiarity with remote filtration. I was not familiar with the inner working of the Amsoil Dual Remote Bypass until last week – however I was not completely ignorant, so allow me let me back up. Keep in mind this information only applies to the dual remote bypass and full flow filter, not the stand-alone bypass. When I first looked at the literature on this product (G-498 8/98) in 2000, I thought the schematic cutaway diagram was incorrect. This picture essentially depicts a device (restrictor) allowing some (metered) oil to flow into the full flow oil filter and full oil pressure to flow to the by-pass filter side. I thought the diagram was either wrong or I couldn’t understand the inner workings, so at that point in time and since some of the otherliterature in my purchased materials binder was quite old – I dismissed it. Last year I read two reports of people who reported an over 10+ PSI oil pressure drop with the dual remote bypass filter mount - both said they had contacted Amsoil directly - and really got no answers, yet when the dual remotes were removed oil pressure came back to normal. Then this year (Jan. 2003) a solidly mechanical individual reports: With BMK-13: Idle cold = 50 psi Warm low cruise = 30 psi Without BMK-13: Idle cold = 75-80 psi Warm low cruise = 50 psi This got my interest up, as did some earlier discussions. All of these I, again, dismissed as something wrong with the data or the installation. Well, ignoring problems does not make them go away, so last week I read Bob (yes THAT Bob from Schaeffers Oil) continued his practical oil filter flow test that he started back in March by testing two dual remote bypass set-ups. Please go to www.bobistheoilguy.com and click on the Oil Filter forum, then the bobistheoilguy filter study thread. On pages 4, 5 and 6 of the discussion/data you’ll see where he went – and I agree – it makes no sense the way the dual remote is engineered by Amsoil. Very interesting reading throughout. ( Earlier in the test SDF-15 does quite well for a high capacity filter, I might add!). You can say this method is not ASTM, but there is the pressure drop. How can we account for this? I had never before seen the (apparently) cast model he uses, in a picture or otherwise, and assume it is an early Amsoil design. I could easily throw that one out, as irrelevant, but both types appear to have the same internals. To restrict the full flow makes zero sense for engine longevity – but I can almost see what the engineer was attempting to do. With a really precise/light spring some oil will flow through the more restrictive bypass filter. The original engineers may have set out to keep a constant pressure at the by-pass and when the pressure goes higher than the spring pressure it lets oil go through. In practical terms this does not work – regardless of the nice pictures of installations on the corporate web site! (I would truly love the filter oil pressure readings, before and after installation of all these applications) May 25, 2003, as posted in the oil filter flow test thread : “Well I was the guy with the concern, and the dual bypass system that Bob tested was the one that was on my truck. Good thing it was only on for a VERY short while. I thought that maybe it was my truck or the way I installed the system, but it now seems that my concerns were genuine and the problem seems to lie with the D.R system not my install of it. I think that these tests are what this site is all about, and getting unbiased testing of products like the Amsoil dual remote bypass system is something that is hard to come by. I can't help but wonder if someone with this system who is getting low UOA results, if the low oil pressure is contributing to increased engine wear but the bypass filter is removing the wear metals giving a false reading; who knows maybe your bearings and cams are now in your bypass filter?” IF this turns out to be an Engineering flaw (vs. mfr. Batch issue) I have an Engineering solution or two in mind, all have drawbacks but none as serious as the current design. The real PR (and legal) problem is as I see it Amsoil should come up with some non-** answers or redesign/drop the thing. Anyhow, I suspect it is NOT by random that Bob decided to test these. Inside word is that Bob was “on to” this pressure drop issue (via the posts, obviously and his desire, of course, to sell more Shaefer’s oil) Also, there are oil analysis’ that are not greatly improved and sometimes worsened by filter set-up – real engine data, not just lab stuff. Gear Oil GL-4 Applications I think the Series 2000 75W-90/140 gear oils are pretty great products (although I’m not sure why the need to cost more than Redline’s offerings). However, both the analysis and the shift feel feedback is telling me this stuff is NOT the ticket for many GL-4 manual gear boxes. Solution should be fairly apparent: Either stop recommending it for such gearboxes and/or come out with a new product similar to Redline MTL. Small market, I know. Universal ATF and Chrysler ATF+4 Amsoil ATF is the best on the market. I’ll stand toe to toe with any Dexron application, any test GM or ASTM or otherwise, any time of the year! Then step in some “specialized” fluids, well maybe not that specialized – ATF+4. I’ll be the first to claim that some of the Daimler-Benz AT’s have just been garbage, and fixes through creative ATF are a band-aid at best. The medium level savvy customer knows that it is improbable that any ATF could meet all the different car AT specifications, (especially those such as ATF+4 that REQUIRE the exact DC formulation) and despite words from Amsoil Corporate, the situation is not getting more rosy when people report their AT’s slipping in Jeeps, minivans, etc after switching to our ATF and Amsoil tells them to add a bottle of Lubegard! We take a lot of heat here. I know we can come closer to the DC formulation, (violation or not?) but this will require a separate product (again). Solution: another ATF product for DC, or maybe 2 more – Mercon V and a DC ATF+ - ATF +4 products. Series 2000 0W-30 Motor Oil (and other motor oils) TSO hardly comes close to making it to 20,000 miles in healthy cars. I can’t even defend it, and I will not lie to customers about our products. The product rarely makes it to 10,000 miles without severe TBN depletion, oxidation and nitration numbers through the roof and wear metals not looking good – not to mention the related viscosity increase. Again, check the used oil analysis section of www.bobistheoilguy.com it’s a gold mine of information. And if we want to insist Bob is making all the numbers up we can go down that ill advised path, but what about the analyses’ you are seeing? Are they all great Action News material? I think not, because people have given this information to Amsoil (mainly because they think they didn’t get their value for the $8.35/qt). Now this may really make you angry: It almost appears that this oil (TSO) was not adequately tested in real world applications. If not for the 12 months – we would have an even larger mess. I have to say it is almost laughing stock material. What is the feedback customers get from Amsoil? “Must be something wrong with your engine”, “Blackstone who uses 1940’s technology” or something other than improving the oil; “From: [email protected] To: Subject: RE: Technical Service Contact Form Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 12:10:32 -0500 Who did the analysis? What was the engine condition? What is the mileage? Was their glycol present? Is there an emissions problem causing nitration? Can you explain that? Seems to be a whole lot of missing info. The testing methods we use are ASTM certified and can be duplicated in ANY lab using these methods. (with maybe the exception of Blackstone who uses 1940's technology). We have not seen this oil. Unless this is just hearsay we sure would like to see a sample. Thank you.” The other oils do a tad better. The HDD does OK. The standard ATM and ASL are pretty darn good value, but how often do they make it to 25,000 miles without severe oxidation and TBN reduction? Sure the ASL did OK in the shoot out with Mobil 1 in our tests, and the ATM did good in the engine sequence test – but the analysis are saying it’s not making it to 25,000 miles. Also take a look at this shoot-out: http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/stories/oil-life.html Will the ASL (I supplied) hold up as well as the 5W-30 Mobil1? I hope so! This is NOT BOB running this test. This guy is very friendly to me and has NOTHING to do with Bob. Solutions: Part 1: Reformulation of the oils. Look at the ASTM D 4742 TFOUT Oxidation resistance testing and the formulations of the top tier competition. Don’t rule out modern Mo and B additives. Basically beef up the additive package – for a top tier oil, at top dollar, the Amsoil additives just aren’t cutting it. Part 2: Seriously change the extended OCI recommendation, wording and preparation information. The drain interval table is OK, but needs updating and expansion. It just is not safe, especially with the 35,000 mile recommendation without more detailed disclaimers, “how to” and precise information by and for (at least) engine mfr and type. As far as the Amsoil solvent flush goes, it’s just OK, but doesn’t really clean much of the old acid forming, oxidized crud and varnish out. I suggest a better pre-cleaning process with products similar to Auto-Rx. (that Frank guy is starting to make some serious cash with his product, despite his early manufacturing flaws). Informed consumers are more and more wary of dumping solvent type flushes in their engines, despite words on paper. This will help with the early TBN killing we see with first Amsoil motor oil fills – which again should not be recommended as super extended OCI’s. Well that’s about it. I know this is not a popular thing. You could just toss me out as a dealer. So be it, because I like to think I’m dealing with/for a company that handles the truth and improves. Amsoil, now more than ever, needs products that can excel over Redline, Royal Purple, Schaeffers, Mobil 1, and the other niche top tier oils. I suspect the answer will be: Amsoil has sold 1,000’s of systems and 1,000’s of gallons of lubes and we have no complaints or the complaints were invalid. Al – I challenge you to not let this pat answer fly. A six page letter and not one gripe about the API labeling scheme. Please let me know what you think. Thank you, Paul A. Seminara Dealer #515729
Things HAVE changed!!!!!!!! Is it because of BITOG? [I dont know]
 
Messages
907
Location
Canada
If the oil companies lurk here, I hope they get this message: Why the **** is diesel now costing more than gas when traditionally diesel is .20 cents a litre or $1.00 less a Canadian gallon in past??????!!!!!!!! I believe it is widely accepted that diesel is far less expensive to process. Cyprs
 
Messages
151
Location
Massachusetts
quote:
Why the **** is diesel now costing more than gas when traditionally diesel is .20 cents a litre or $1.00 less a Canadian gallon in past??????!!!!!!!!
This article made shed some light: http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2005/10/11/diesel/index_np.html (the free pass is worth it to read this story!) In short: constrained supply plus new infrastructure to support low-sulfur fuel means pricey diesel. This author predicts $5/gallon!
 
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1,979
Location
Houston
If oil companies lurk here, it's probably just the marketing folks; the engineering groups probably have it bookmarked under "Humor".
 

Char Baby

Thread starter
Messages
13,223
Location
ROCHESTER, NY
This site has helped keep me using the better oils/filters and extending my OCI beyond the 3/3,000(to about 4/5,000 - 5/6,000 miles) on most of my vehicles. I'am also getting the oil and filters at the best prices possible with sales and rebates.
 
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1,027
Location
East Helena, Montana
Diesel fuel and fuel oil for heating homes are made at about the same point in the process of refining crude oil. In a sense, they compete with each other, particularly during the cold months. At this point in time, since diesel fuel and home heating fuel oil are close to the same thing, the oil companies are making and selling more home heating fuel oil and less diesel. In some parts of the country, such as New England, fuel oil is used a lot to heat homes and people absolutely have to have it, so the oil companies are producing more of it and less of diesel fuel. And that's driving up the price of diesel fuel, because the demand for diesel fuel has not gone down while the demand for home heating fuel oil has risen.
 
Messages
907
Location
Canada
[Off Topic!] Will read your post link later bfg9k, thanks, jm, that is interesting point. My speculation, only an observation is that up here when oil was about $40.00 a barrel at start of the great increase in gas prices, the gas prices were around 85 per litre and diesel was still .20 litre less. Then oil increases to $62.00 barrel, gas only raises by .10 to .15 litre, but diesel raises .25 litre, surpassing price of gas. I reason the oil companies are holding the line on gas prices by raising price of diesel. Up here in Canada there is a lot of diesel trucks and cars. This is my take on diesel prices, an observation. Cyprs
 
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11,247
Location
PA
FTR- there is now a Chevron R&D person as a Forum Member. He chimed in for the first time on one of my threads. I don't remember which one and can't recall his name...doh. I could look it up if it was important, but I think we should let him ease into whatever role he chooses to play as a member. He did say most info here is spot-on. [Big Grin]
 
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2,275
Location
Cincinnati
Johnny: allow me to echo Blue99's comments and congratulate you on your career. The best of luck and health to you in your retirement. And ""double ditto"" Blue99's comments concerning your input to the forums.
 
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17,067
Location
Silicon Valley
I am sure for each announced oil company employee, there are 30 more here that didn't say a word to avoid getting into trouble. I work in a hard drive company but I didn't mentioned in storagereview.com or anandtech.com that I work in a particular one. Otherwise they will be asking all kinds of questions about trade secrets, ranting, complains, etc.
 
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34,146
Location
Southern NJ
I know for a fact oil companies lurk here. For one thing, the guys' from Chevron mentioned this site to me before I even brought it up! I've also had a guy from Mobil's tech department say he was aware of the website as well as Amsoil and Redline. So YES, they lurk. All the companies I mentioned above have nice tech people. [Smile] Pablo your the man for writing that.
 
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23,693
Location
CA
quote:
Originally posted by Audi Junkie: FTR- there is now a Chevron R&D person as a Forum Member. He chimed in for the first time on one of my threads. I don't remember which one and can't recall his name...doh. I could look it up if it was important, but I think we should let him ease into whatever role he chooses to play as a member. He did say most info here is spot-on. [Big Grin]
Yep. [ October 31, 2005, 11:03 PM: Message edited by: 59 Vetteman ]
 
Messages
1,407
Location
Vail, Colorado
quote:
Originally posted by Johnny: Well, I do work for Pennzoil/Quaker State/Shell and I am on the marketing side of things and I do have connections with some of the best chemist in the country, or at least I will until 5:00 PM CST today, October 31st. This is my last day. I AM RETIRING.
Congratulations! I hope you enjoy your time off, or your next career! I also hope that you continue to share your knowledge with us! [Cheers!]
 
quite an interesting letter, Pablo-- and this reinforces the feeling I had of absolute B/S that the dealer I was talking with was shooting my way [noone on this site, BTW]. I will definitely not be using Amsoil products. They may well be the best thing on the planet-- but if they can't address the above with the pat answer you hypothesize, and their dealers for the most part spout FUD about other products, I will be quite happy staying with my "inferior" Castrol products. As someone said already-- the best oil for you is what works well for you, regardless of product. I've always gotten great results from Castrol and M1, having used them interchangably as funds or availability allowed, until recently finding out about GC.
 
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14,013
Location
Retired | Wausau, WI
Well, I do work for Pennzoil/Quaker State/Shell and I am on the marketing side of things and I do have connections with some of the best chemist in the country, or at least I will until 5:00 PM CST today, October 31st. This is my last day. I AM RETIRING. I have never bashed others products as a matter of fact I think highly of some of them. There are some that I would not use but I never felt it was my place to state these opinions. That's just not the way I've sold for the past 21 years. I do believe there are many in the oil industry that visit this site that we will never know about and that's a shame. There are many knowledgable people on this site and that's why I joined in the first place. When B/s or personal opinions are spewed I ignore it, but when someone says something with authority and can back it up I pay close attention. I do think we carry things to extremes sometimes on the UOA & VOA but to each his own. My policy has always been, pick an oil that works best for you and stick with it no matter what the brand. [Cheers!]
 
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