I asked about installing bypass filters on new trucks on railroad work trucks. One rep told me that it might void the warranty on them. Any truth to this? I did mention the benefits to it.These trucks are freightliners ,internationals,etc
Do bypass filters void new vehicle warrantys?
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Theoretically, NO...unless they can prove the bypass directly caused a failure (e.g. the bypass filter element deteriorated and plugged oil passages, there was insufficient restriction to the bypass filter that caused engine to be starved of oil, etc.); you are protected under the Moss-Magnuson Act. They can't void warranty on an unrelated part either (e.g. the bypass filter can't be blamed for a wheel bearing failure).
However, in the real world; anything they can put into question can and will be used against you. It also depends on your dealership...some are modification-friendly, while others are not.
I know the local Dodge dealers would void warranties if a K&N was installed or if you used a non-recommended oil filter, but I have read of other dealers actually installing power enhancing programmers and lift kits and offering full warranties.
So in short, its a gamble.
On edit, I see you indicated later about International (which indicates Medium/Heavy-duty trucks)...I know my last neighbor was a International technician and he said they have seen an increase in performance mods, and have tightened their warranty because of that.
However, in the real world; anything they can put into question can and will be used against you. It also depends on your dealership...some are modification-friendly, while others are not.
I know the local Dodge dealers would void warranties if a K&N was installed or if you used a non-recommended oil filter, but I have read of other dealers actually installing power enhancing programmers and lift kits and offering full warranties.
So in short, its a gamble.
On edit, I see you indicated later about International (which indicates Medium/Heavy-duty trucks)...I know my last neighbor was a International technician and he said they have seen an increase in performance mods, and have tightened their warranty because of that.
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If the bypass filter is installed so that it does no damage, bypass flow is restricted enough that it doesn't starve the engine for oil etc, then no, it won't cause a legal warranty problem.
If there is a lube related problem and the manufacturer decides to blame the bypass filter, either legitimately or not, then it could be a problem. That said, there isn't much chance of that happening with a properly designed and installed bypass filter and a knowledgeable and ethical truck dealer and manufacturer.
Is there actually an engine wear problem with your work trucks that a bypass filter can be expected to solve?
If there is a lube related problem and the manufacturer decides to blame the bypass filter, either legitimately or not, then it could be a problem. That said, there isn't much chance of that happening with a properly designed and installed bypass filter and a knowledgeable and ethical truck dealer and manufacturer.
Is there actually an engine wear problem with your work trucks that a bypass filter can be expected to solve?
Originally Posted By: XS650
Is there actually an engine wear problem with your work trucks that a bypass filter can be expected to solve?
No, but considering the amount saved by extending oil changes,i thought it'd be a good decision.
Is there actually an engine wear problem with your work trucks that a bypass filter can be expected to solve?
No, but considering the amount saved by extending oil changes,i thought it'd be a good decision.
It should be easy to get something in writing from the MFGs as those engines are expensive. All the big truck engines I have seen or worked on or changed the oil on had bypass filters.
There is a 14 page thread from about 6 years ago about a guy who spun a bearing on a Subaru; Subaru saw the bypass and end of story...
I don't have time to reread the whole thing, but
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=607594&page=1
Amsoil filter didn't cause the issue but things can play out not like you plan.
I suspect with big rigs the truck companies are more familiar with the products and I believe some offer one as an option.
I don't have time to reread the whole thing, but
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=607594&page=1
Amsoil filter didn't cause the issue but things can play out not like you plan.
I suspect with big rigs the truck companies are more familiar with the products and I believe some offer one as an option.
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Remember, a bypass filter bypasses some of the oil pump output through the filter and back to the sump without the oil going through the bearings. How much bypass oil is too much? If I was responsible for paying for damage to oil lubricated parts, the first thing I'd say was that too much oil was bypassed and not enough pumped through the bearings. Prove me wrong!
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Q: Did you do anything different?
A: I sneezed this time.
THAT'S IT!!!!
A: I sneezed this time.
THAT'S IT!!!!
Originally Posted By: Ken2
Remember, a bypass filter bypasses some of the oil pump output through the filter and back to the sump without the oil going through the bearings. How much bypass oil is too much? If I was responsible for paying for damage to oil lubricated parts, the first thing I'd say was that too much oil was bypassed and not enough pumped through the bearings. Prove me wrong!
Most bypass filters work that way, but not the BMK-13 bypass filter used by 2Grand4s in the link above. This setup uses a biasing valve to increase backpressure to the full-flow filter, resulting in increased pressure to the bypass filter. All of the oil coming into the BMK-13 unit passes through the engine without being bypassed. But the increased backpressure could cause the engine's pressure relief valve to open up which could cause a spun bearing.
Unfortunatelty, the OP didn't give details of the engine damage. He didn't post to seek advice - just to [censored] about Amsoil's warranty. He could have tried legal recourse or arbitration, but chose just to pay for it. I'm a little skeptical of his claims, since he stopped posting early i that thread and didn't address many of the questions asked. I have the same setup in my car and it's been working flawlessly for over 130,000 miles.
Remember, a bypass filter bypasses some of the oil pump output through the filter and back to the sump without the oil going through the bearings. How much bypass oil is too much? If I was responsible for paying for damage to oil lubricated parts, the first thing I'd say was that too much oil was bypassed and not enough pumped through the bearings. Prove me wrong!
Most bypass filters work that way, but not the BMK-13 bypass filter used by 2Grand4s in the link above. This setup uses a biasing valve to increase backpressure to the full-flow filter, resulting in increased pressure to the bypass filter. All of the oil coming into the BMK-13 unit passes through the engine without being bypassed. But the increased backpressure could cause the engine's pressure relief valve to open up which could cause a spun bearing.
Unfortunatelty, the OP didn't give details of the engine damage. He didn't post to seek advice - just to [censored] about Amsoil's warranty. He could have tried legal recourse or arbitration, but chose just to pay for it. I'm a little skeptical of his claims, since he stopped posting early i that thread and didn't address many of the questions asked. I have the same setup in my car and it's been working flawlessly for over 130,000 miles.
One way or another a bypass filter takes some oil away from the engine bearings. It has to. In the case of the Amsoil dual system, I agree with your description that the increased backpressure will cause the oil pump pressure control valve to open and dump more pump output than it otherwise would, and also the oil pressure to the bearings downstream from the Amsoil dual bypass system will be lower. It will take add-on oil pressure gauges to see all this as the OEM oil pressure sensor or gauge is not in this location.
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I agree with your description that the increased backpressure will cause the oil pump pressure control valve to open and dump more pump output than it otherwise would, and also the oil pressure to the bearings downstream from the Amsoil dual bypass system will be lower.
I would not quite have such conviction on that. Temp would play just as much a role as the biasing valve.
That is, if the biasing valve that's used to simulate a partially loaded full flow filter was producing enough of a restriction to peak the limits, it should hardly reach any level that can't be attained otherwise with temp/visc.
They DID redesign the biasing valve a few years back. It now is ported as opposed to the solid ball it was originally.
Let's say this Soobie had the wizbang ultra high volume pump that calls for a 20+ bypass level on the filter. While I don't KNOW the rate on the biasing valve, Amsoil would be absolute fools to make it in excess of a couple of pounds. They surely wouldn't match or exceed the bypass valve setting of the full flow that was down stream. The full flow Amsoil filter doesn't have a high bypass setting.
He could have taken the biasing valve out of the mount. I ran a Permacool dual mount with just using the 1-16 inserts.
I agree with your description that the increased backpressure will cause the oil pump pressure control valve to open and dump more pump output than it otherwise would, and also the oil pressure to the bearings downstream from the Amsoil dual bypass system will be lower.
I would not quite have such conviction on that. Temp would play just as much a role as the biasing valve.
That is, if the biasing valve that's used to simulate a partially loaded full flow filter was producing enough of a restriction to peak the limits, it should hardly reach any level that can't be attained otherwise with temp/visc.
They DID redesign the biasing valve a few years back. It now is ported as opposed to the solid ball it was originally.
Let's say this Soobie had the wizbang ultra high volume pump that calls for a 20+ bypass level on the filter. While I don't KNOW the rate on the biasing valve, Amsoil would be absolute fools to make it in excess of a couple of pounds. They surely wouldn't match or exceed the bypass valve setting of the full flow that was down stream. The full flow Amsoil filter doesn't have a high bypass setting.
He could have taken the biasing valve out of the mount. I ran a Permacool dual mount with just using the 1-16 inserts.
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Edit: Now what could surely happen in a setup like that ... with a really high volume scenario is that the lines could come into play. If you had too long a run, it could surely add something either on the cold end or the high end of the equation.
Providing that you follow a reasonable maintainance schedule and if you are going to go for extended drain intervals you should do oil sampling and retain the reports to negate any objections by your dealership. If the oil is acceptable and has not deteriorated or become contaminated there should be no issue.
Most times that service writers and managers say it will void warranty is from ignorance.
Most times that service writers and managers say it will void warranty is from ignorance.
Quote:
Theoretically, NO...unless they can prove the bypass directly caused a failure (e.g. the bypass filter element deteriorated and plugged oil passages, there was insufficient restriction to the bypass filter that caused engine to be starved of oil, etc.); you are protected under the Moss-Magnuson Act. They can't void warranty on an unrelated part either (e.g. the bypass filter can't be blamed for a wheel bearing failure).
I agree.
I wonder if we could use a check valve in the circuit to "prove" that the engine wasn't starved of oil. I'm talking about installing a check valve at the beginning of the oil feed (from oil galley plug or tee off of the OPS port) with a cracking pressure >= the lowest "normal" engine oil pressure that's typical for average RPM. Also keeping the restrictor in there just in case there is too much flow.
Anyone know how reliable check valves are?
Theoretically, NO...unless they can prove the bypass directly caused a failure (e.g. the bypass filter element deteriorated and plugged oil passages, there was insufficient restriction to the bypass filter that caused engine to be starved of oil, etc.); you are protected under the Moss-Magnuson Act. They can't void warranty on an unrelated part either (e.g. the bypass filter can't be blamed for a wheel bearing failure).
I agree.
I wonder if we could use a check valve in the circuit to "prove" that the engine wasn't starved of oil. I'm talking about installing a check valve at the beginning of the oil feed (from oil galley plug or tee off of the OPS port) with a cracking pressure >= the lowest "normal" engine oil pressure that's typical for average RPM. Also keeping the restrictor in there just in case there is too much flow.
Anyone know how reliable check valves are?
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