Do any Group I oils contain moly?
- Thread starter Dr. T
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i beleive that most group 2's are starting to include moly in their formulas. castrol gtx and pennzoil are good ones. i also read a virgin oil analasis where the citgo superguard 10w30 dino, which i beleive is a group 1, contained 95ppm moly, a good amount. penzdude.
A lot of the dinos are blending group I and group II basestocks. Group I, exclusively, is becoming rare.
The group is only the base oil. Base oil doesn't contain moly.
I'm not sure if any standard petroleum API-SL and GF-3 oil can be made from group I base stock and meet the specs. If there are any oils being made from GR I base stock, it's probably blended with GR II+ or other high performing base stock to meet the specs for oxidation resistance, viscosity index (before the addition of VIIs), and other requirements and it'll have considerably different characteristics that the original group. (Hmmm...I wonder if some of the OTC synthetic blend oils are made from cheap GR I base oil plus just enough GR III base to meed API-SL & GF-3 specs, then sold at a premium price as if they're something special?)
As always, it's wise to look at the ingredients, but the most important thing is to look at the final product and it's performance.
Ken
[ January 16, 2003, 11:01 PM: Message edited by: Ken2 ]
I'm not sure if any standard petroleum API-SL and GF-3 oil can be made from group I base stock and meet the specs. If there are any oils being made from GR I base stock, it's probably blended with GR II+ or other high performing base stock to meet the specs for oxidation resistance, viscosity index (before the addition of VIIs), and other requirements and it'll have considerably different characteristics that the original group. (Hmmm...I wonder if some of the OTC synthetic blend oils are made from cheap GR I base oil plus just enough GR III base to meed API-SL & GF-3 specs, then sold at a premium price as if they're something special?)
As always, it's wise to look at the ingredients, but the most important thing is to look at the final product and it's performance.
Ken
[ January 16, 2003, 11:01 PM: Message edited by: Ken2 ]
This is exactly what has comprised non-synthetic premimum oils in Europe for years, and is one of the reasons there is virtually no Group II production there. When "Black Death" surfaced over there in the late 80s and early 90s and the ACEA introduced more stringent standards to combat it, the oil companies in Europe took two routes: PAO/ester based synthetics and Group I/Group III blends.
Picture this in your head: You take the valve cover off the engine and every square inch of metal is covered with a thick, black, shiny glaze. It isn't sludge and it isn't what we'd normally call varnish. It's been a long time since I read anything on it, but I belive the car makers and oil companies attributed it to the total oxidation of the oil. It was so common that oil companies would actually use it in ads for their premium motor oils. The first time I ever heard of it was in a Mobil 1 ad in a British car magazine in 1992, and that's where I saw the pic. I've never seen the inside of an engine that looked that bad.
I thought some of the blends have moly, such as Valvoline??
And then there is Amsoil, group IV that doesn't use it because quote:
"This is a chemistry we do not wish to use. Moly as an anti wear additive is questionable, but can be an effective friction modifier. We market our motor oils for long service life, and chemicals such as Moly can come out of suspension and form a paste under the right circumstances. It can also actually be abrasive in large doses. As a side note, the scan we did in the lab showed no evidence of Moly in the new Mobil SuperSyn"
[ January 17, 2003, 06:14 PM: Message edited by: MikeC ]
And then there is Amsoil, group IV that doesn't use it because quote:
"This is a chemistry we do not wish to use. Moly as an anti wear additive is questionable, but can be an effective friction modifier. We market our motor oils for long service life, and chemicals such as Moly can come out of suspension and form a paste under the right circumstances. It can also actually be abrasive in large doses. As a side note, the scan we did in the lab showed no evidence of Moly in the new Mobil SuperSyn"
[ January 17, 2003, 06:14 PM: Message edited by: MikeC ]
Patman
Staff member
They must've tested an early batch of SuperSyn, because all the UOAs on here with SuperSyn show moly. Only the very early batches had none.
I don't see large doses of moly being abrasive, otherwise Redline oils would show terrible UOA results.
I don't see large doses of moly being abrasive, otherwise Redline oils would show terrible UOA results.
There's moly and then there's moly.
Molybdenum disulfide, MoS2, the solid gray crystaline powder stuff, is indeed a poor choice for motor oils. It's great in greases and gear oils. It will cause the paste Amsoil describes.
Molybdenum Trialkyldithiocarbamate, MoTDC, is very different. It is soluable in oil, not abrasive, and doesn't form a paste. This is the product Schaeffer calls "Micron Moly." MoTDC, or a close relative, is what we call "moly" in motor oil, not MoS2.
Ken
Molybdenum disulfide, MoS2, the solid gray crystaline powder stuff, is indeed a poor choice for motor oils. It's great in greases and gear oils. It will cause the paste Amsoil describes.
Molybdenum Trialkyldithiocarbamate, MoTDC, is very different. It is soluable in oil, not abrasive, and doesn't form a paste. This is the product Schaeffer calls "Micron Moly." MoTDC, or a close relative, is what we call "moly" in motor oil, not MoS2.
Ken
Amsoil has to know the difference between the two moly types (it's their business to know). Is this a deliberately misleading statement by Amsoil?
[ January 18, 2003, 10:01 PM: Message edited by: TheLoneRanger ]
It's probably a brain-cramp by the individual Amsoil employee who answered the question...or maybe prevarication.
Ken
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