Did my 96 Subaru Legacy timing belt break?

[HangFire]

Chains are great for cam-in-block OHV engines. Unfortunately US manufacturers still found ways of screwing up what should have been simple and reliable. For example, my 351W that had a plastic/steel chain gear, or my "Iron Duke" chainless gear-to-gear engine that had a "phenolic resin composite" gear (plasticized cardboard). Both failed. So, I'm not overly stoked by the idea that chains or even gear-to-gear cam drives are more reliable.

Multiple cam, multiple head engines, with multiple chain guides, tensioner(s), etc., are a complexity nightmare.

I guess a good argument can be made for not using belts on a simple single head SOHC engine, but belts are quieter.

I've heard that Toyota has a policy of always using chains on interference engines and saving belts for non-interference engines. I haven't surveyed their entire engine history to know if this is strictly true, but it sounds like a good idea.

Originally Posted By: Miller88
Originally Posted By: Trav
If you do this yourself Aisin makes a very good kit with the double bearing idlers, Aisin water pump, a new OE tensioner and Mitsuboshi belt.


A timing belt job for a Subaru (Fiji) has compontents made by Mitsubishi (another Japanese industry giant) and Aisin (Controlling interest by Toyota)


Mitsuboshi belts is not Mitsubishi.

 

[SwampSurvivor]

I don't like having to pay a shop to disassemble the front of the engine to change a glorified rubber band ... and if I don't spend $1000 to do that, I have to buy a $3000 engine.

Instead, because I have a timing chain, I don't have to worry about it.

Yes, there are timing chains with problems .. but EVERY timing belt will fail.

 

[ARCOgraphite]

miller =I don't agree to disagree

but buy what you want.
IN my considerable experience almost every chain timing SYSTEM failed BEFORE 70K miles on all cars i've owned with chains. ZERO problems with belts. Cost? I've never seen a belt job on a 4 banger go over 300 if you are smart. What do you have to do it once in the vehicle life?

Lexus LS 4L V8 that another animal.

Chains throw junk in the oil and foam the lubricant and can pump oil out of the pan on transverse engines during hard cornering and ... BOOM! Dead motor.

 

[stephen9666]

Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite

IN my considerable experience almost every chain timing SYSTEM failed BEFORE 70K miles on all cars i've owned with chains. ZERO problems with belts.


Hmmm...I've never had any problems with any of my vehicles with timing chains. My truck (on OHC engine) is going strong at 150k miles with the original timing chain. My Hyundai (now sold to my brother) is at 125k on the original timing chain with no issues. Those are the two most recent vehicles I've owned with chains.

Neither timing chains nor belts are truly objectively superior. It all comes down to how the system is designed, how reliably it's constructed and what your priorities are.

 

[L_Sludger]

Originally Posted By: Miller88
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
Originally Posted By: Miller88
What a stupid, unacceptable, third world cost cutting measure.

If Subaru had spent another $30 to manufacture the car - it would still be running fine ... without the owner(s) have to drop $1000 every 60/90K miles.

Just stupid.
Uh, No. Timing belts are superior to chain in OHC applications and I prefer them. Had TONSDof issues with TCT and engine failure with various chain engines - including my pricey 98 BMW 3.2L M roadster that had the guides fall apart at 68K due to oil incompatibility (or poor polymer choices in the design - depending on your perspective).


We can agree to disagree there.


Folks won't believe me but I know this to be true. I personally knew of a Toyota Avalon from 1996 that is still running on its original timing belt. Stupid? Absolutely. But the owner insisted on not changing the belt because 'the car will never run right again' afterward. And the car had more than 320,000 miles on it.

Some HSN belts, properly insulated from the elements, will last a [censored] long time.

 

[L_Sludger]

Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
miller =I don't agree to disagree

but buy what you want.
IN my considerable experience almost every chain timing SYSTEM failed BEFORE 70K miles on all cars i've owned with chains. ZERO problems with belts. Cost? I've never seen a belt job on a 4 banger go over 300 if you are smart. What do you have to do it once in the vehicle life?

Lexus LS 4L V8 that another animal.


Hm? I've done a couple LS400 timing belts. A pretty straightforward job, believe it or not. Just takes a while. I could do one in an afternoon now. The OEM belts on them are good and can go over 150,000 miles. The one I replaced in my old car had about that many miles on it, was about 12 years old, and was only beginning to show cracks on the outside of the belt. It was time to change it. Funny thing is, the Avalon belt with 300k miles looked better when I checked it, than the 150k LS400 belt!

 

[Wheel]

Gates makes a decent kit for Subaru. It would be good to replace the tensioner, water pump, and cam seals if you end up with that much of it apart. Be sure to have the cam sprockets and any pulleys checked and replaced as well.

It's not too difficult a job, short of the crank pulley, but you can either borrow or make the tool to remove the bolt easily.

 

[kschachn]

I agree with Trav, the only aftermarket timing belt kits I trust are Aisin. They do sell a kit for your car, but it is interesting they note the engine is an interference design. Is it or isn't it?

Here is what is included in the Aisin kit with a water pump:

Quote:
Kit includes: AISIN Water Pump, Mitsuboshi Timing Belt, NSK Tensioner Bearing, AISIN Hydraulic Tensioner, KOYO Idler Bearing (1),KOYO Idler Bearing (2),NSK Idler Bearing.

 

[bvance554]

Originally Posted By: L_Sludger

Folks won't believe me but I know this to be true. I personally knew of a Toyota Avalon from 1996 that is still running on its original timing belt. Stupid? Absolutely. But the owner insisted on not changing the belt because 'the car will never run right again' afterward. And the car had more than 320,000 miles on it.

Some HSN belts, properly insulated from the elements, will last a [censored] long time.


I could agree with that. If I hadn't replaced my timing belt kit, my Subaru would still be running today. I had 180k on the original belt and it looked perfect.

 

[Trav]

No its not an interference engine, i just did one of these same year and engine not too long ago.
Also did the cam seals and tightened the oil pump screws behind the pump housing and used loctite blue and installed the Subaru blue o ring for the pump. Also did the thermostat.
Once the fans and radiator are out its a easy enough job. Crank bolt is easy also, there is a rubber flywheel plug.

 

[Quest]

Originally Posted By: bvance554
Originally Posted By: L_Sludger

Folks won't believe me but I know this to be true. I personally knew of a Toyota Avalon from 1996 that is still running on its original timing belt. Stupid? Absolutely. But the owner insisted on not changing the belt because 'the car will never run right again' afterward. And the car had more than 320,000 miles on it.

Some HSN belts, properly insulated from the elements, will last a [censored] long time.


I could agree with that. If I hadn't replaced my timing belt kit, my Subaru would still be running today. I had 180k on the original belt and it looked perfect.


You may call yourself crazy lucky by means of pushing it (beyond it's original intended service life).

Fact is, there are some avg joe owners who tried to push their timing belt service interval to beyond the original factory intended (recommended) intervals, and failed. With interference engine, most failed in a very costly manner.

Just because you were lucky doesn't mean it will not happen to you. I'd seriously consider you lucky if, for the same type of car/engine, you were able to push that service interval to way beyond factory intended/recommended, and have both times lucky that way.

This is statistics ma friend, the famous bell curve.

Q.

 

[SubLGT]

Originally Posted By: callbay
Lent my 96 Subaru Legacy wagon with 138,000 miles on it to a gal friend today while her car was being worked on. While she was driving home she said the car just stopped and all the dash warning lights came on. It's a 2.2 L 4 cyl automatic.

Now it turns over faster then usual but won't start.

As far as I can tell from records and talking to the last owner the belt was not changed, at least by him and he had owned it for several years……...


18 years and 138000 miles on a timing belt! You got your money's worth out of that belt.

 

[Bottom_Feeder]

Originally Posted By: Wheel
Gates makes a decent kit for Subaru. It would be good to replace the tensioner, water pump, and cam seals if you end up with that much of it apart. Be sure to have the cam sprockets and any pulleys checked and replaced as well.

It's not too difficult a job, short of the crank pulley, but you can either borrow or make the tool to remove the bolt easily.

I used a Gates kit on my Impreza two years ago. They were all quality pieces but the water pump was a no-name Chinese part. I wasn't totally sold on using it but did anyway, and I didn't have any issues in 18k miles. That said, I would suggest a Gates kit but not one with a water pump. Leave in the original or get one from a dealer.

The crank pulley bolt came out easily with a breaker bar against the unibody frame rail and a bump of the starter. One of those 'don't try this at home' tricks that nobody wants to go on record as recommending but many have tried successfully.

 

[Bottom_Feeder]

Originally Posted By: bvance554
If I hadn't replaced my timing belt kit, my Subaru would still be running today.

Can you clarify what you're saying here please? The replacement belt broke or something?

 

[Thermo1223]

Originally Posted By: Miller88
I don't like having to pay a shop to disassemble the front of the engine to change a glorified rubber band ... and if I don't spend $1000 to do that, I have to buy a $3000 engine.

Instead, because I have a timing chain, I don't have to worry about it.

Yes, there are timing chains with problems .. but EVERY timing belt will fail.


You are so FULL of wrong where do we start?

Is your serpentine belt a "glorified rubber band" as well?

Since you've never owned one how would you know what it cost?

Every timing chain will fail as well, some much sooner than you would ever believe. Nylon gears, but chain guides, bad tensioners, chains are not immune to anything.

Having to completely redesign the engine to get oil to the chain as well.

There is no agree to disagree....you are just plain wrong.

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: Quest
Originally Posted By: bvance554
Originally Posted By: L_Sludger

Folks won't believe me but I know this to be true. I personally knew of a Toyota Avalon from 1996 that is still running on its original timing belt. Stupid? Absolutely. But the owner insisted on not changing the belt because 'the car will never run right again' afterward. And the car had more than 320,000 miles on it.

Some HSN belts, properly insulated from the elements, will last a [censored] long time.


I could agree with that. If I hadn't replaced my timing belt kit, my Subaru would still be running today. I had 180k on the original belt and it looked perfect.


You may call yourself crazy lucky by means of pushing it (beyond it's original intended service life).

Fact is, there are some avg joe owners who tried to push their timing belt service interval to beyond the original factory intended (recommended) intervals, and failed. With interference engine, most failed in a very costly manner.

Just because you were lucky doesn't mean it will not happen to you. I'd seriously consider you lucky if, for the same type of car/engine, you were able to push that service interval to way beyond factory intended/recommended, and have both times lucky that way.

This is statistics ma friend, the famous bell curve.

Q.



Exactly.
A timing belt is a service item. Just like brakes,oil and tires. If buying a vehicle with one either buy one that has had the service done already pre-purchase or factor that into the purchase price of the vehicle.
If it's not an interference engine then I'd drive it til it breaks however if it is an interference engine then follow the oem recommendation.
And as far as timing chains go bid rather have a belt.
They are made to be serviced thus easier to do(in theory).
I had a stupid plastic guide blow off at the track in my 2v. Nightmare.

 

[L_Sludger]

Originally Posted By: Quest
Originally Posted By: bvance554
Originally Posted By: L_Sludger

Folks won't believe me but I know this to be true. I personally knew of a Toyota Avalon from 1996 that is still running on its original timing belt. Stupid? Absolutely. But the owner insisted on not changing the belt because 'the car will never run right again' afterward. And the car had more than 320,000 miles on it.

Some HSN belts, properly insulated from the elements, will last a [censored] long time.


I could agree with that. If I hadn't replaced my timing belt kit, my Subaru would still be running today. I had 180k on the original belt and it looked perfect.


You may call yourself crazy lucky by means of pushing it (beyond it's original intended service life).

Fact is, there are some avg joe owners who tried to push their timing belt service interval to beyond the original factory intended (recommended) intervals, and failed. With interference engine, most failed in a very costly manner.

Just because you were lucky doesn't mean it will not happen to you. I'd seriously consider you lucky if, for the same type of car/engine, you were able to push that service interval to way beyond factory intended/recommended, and have both times lucky that way.

This is statistics ma friend, the famous bell curve.

Q.

About the 300,000 mile timing belt: I repeatedly offered to change it for the owner, and he resolutely refused. He just insisted on waiting until it broke, being that was a non-interference motor design. I can't tell you how much it frustrated me to argue with him!
Previously he'd broken two timing belts in previous cars. One was a 1987 Integra. That motor was toast. The other was a 1990 Integra. Despite being an interference motor, the timing belt failure did not bend the valves on that one.
I'd call his attitude recklessly negligent.

 

[another Todd]

Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
miller =I don't agree to disagree

but buy what you want.
IN my considerable experience almost every chain timing SYSTEM failed BEFORE 70K miles on all cars i've owned with chains. ZERO problems with belts. Cost? I've never seen a belt job on a 4 banger go over 300 if you are smart. What do you have to do it once in the vehicle life?

Lexus LS 4L V8 that another animal.

Chains throw junk in the oil and foam the lubricant and can pump oil out of the pan on transverse engines during hard cornering and ... BOOM! Dead motor.



I have to agree with Miller88 on these points. I have never had a timing chain problem on any of my vehicles, and all except one have well over 100K miles. Back when I turned wrenches for a living 30+ years ago, timing chain problems were exceedingly rare, unless you overheated your Ford and the nylon gear melted.

 

[MarkM66]

Originally Posted By: Thermo1223
Originally Posted By: Miller88
I don't like having to pay a shop to disassemble the front of the engine to change a glorified rubber band ... and if I don't spend $1000 to do that, I have to buy a $3000 engine.

Instead, because I have a timing chain, I don't have to worry about it.

Yes, there are timing chains with problems .. but EVERY timing belt will fail.


You are so FULL of wrong where do we start?

Is your serpentine belt a "glorified rubber band" as well?

Since you've never owned one how would you know what it cost?

Every timing chain will fail as well, some much sooner than you would ever believe. Nylon gears, but chain guides, bad tensioners, chains are not immune to anything.

Having to completely redesign the engine to get oil to the chain as well.

There is no agree to disagree....you are just plain wrong.


Tires are glorified rubber bands too. I'm going to run on bare steel wheels from now on.

 

[MarkM66]

Originally Posted By: another Todd
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
miller =I don't agree to disagree

but buy what you want.
IN my considerable experience almost every chain timing SYSTEM failed BEFORE 70K miles on all cars i've owned with chains. ZERO problems with belts. Cost? I've never seen a belt job on a 4 banger go over 300 if you are smart. What do you have to do it once in the vehicle life?

Lexus LS 4L V8 that another animal.

Chains throw junk in the oil and foam the lubricant and can pump oil out of the pan on transverse engines during hard cornering and ... BOOM! Dead motor.



I have to agree with Miller88 on these points. I have never had a timing chain problem on any of my vehicles, and all except one have well over 100K miles. Back when I turned wrenches for a living 30+ years ago, timing chain problems were exceedingly rare, unless you overheated your Ford and the nylon gear melted.


Back then you were probably dealing with under head cammed engine where the timing chain was about 2' long. Now with OHC engines, they're about 3-4 times that long, with several wearable guides, and with V6's you have two.

They're not as reliable as they use to be. Just search GM 3.6 V6. They're not lasting as long as a belt,