defy warranty
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Call me a "Timid Tim", but with a 10 yr./100,000 mile powertrain warranty at stake, I see no reason to tweak Hyundai's nose on this issue. Look what happened to "Braveheart" in the end... I figure as long as I use the factory recommended viscosity and latest API service category motor oil, regardless of brand, it's Hyundai's problem for the duration if I've logged service and kept receipts.
[ March 07, 2004, 04:14 PM: Message edited by: Ray H ]
[ March 07, 2004, 04:14 PM: Message edited by: Ray H ]
Is this a Ford/Honda 5w20 question? =)
I think there are two ways to look at this:
1. I paid a lot of money for this car and I want to keep my warranty intact and have no fights if there is a claim.
2. I paid a lot of money for this car and I want to have a say in what I feel is the best way to maintain my investment.
I fall under #2. Why should I use what I feel is not the best products and schedule to keep this $XX,XXX vehicle running smooth. They don't want claims but they also do not want your car to last forever or they would not sell any new ones. Would you leave cheap WalMart Starburst API 5W30 in a GM for one year or 10,000 miles like the manual says? After all GM (Ford,Honda etc.) knows whats best.
1. I paid a lot of money for this car and I want to keep my warranty intact and have no fights if there is a claim.
2. I paid a lot of money for this car and I want to have a say in what I feel is the best way to maintain my investment.
I fall under #2. Why should I use what I feel is not the best products and schedule to keep this $XX,XXX vehicle running smooth. They don't want claims but they also do not want your car to last forever or they would not sell any new ones. Would you leave cheap WalMart Starburst API 5W30 in a GM for one year or 10,000 miles like the manual says? After all GM (Ford,Honda etc.) knows whats best.
I'm with hk33ka1 (BTW, hk..., does that mean something?). I believe that my vehicle is mine and I'll select the BEST oil that I can find. For the cool half of the year, I'll be using the same viscosity as recommended, 5W-40, but for our hot-as-**** summers in the desert, I'll be using 10W-40. I'll have an oil analysis for each change, and I'm confident I'll have no problems.
Boy is that a tricky question.
On the one hand, thanks to the EPA CAFE "police," it seems every maker has to recommend the lightest possible oil to get that theoretical 0.6% to 1.6% "gain" in fleet economy. That builds CAFE "credits" to minimise or eliminate EPA fines.
Along with that argument, how long are most engine warranties? 3/36?? Even the Hyundai with 10/100 must have some catchy "gotcha's" and if I recall Hyundai until VERY recently used to recommend heavier viscosity oils.
On the other hand, and this is where I become VERY suspicious of the EPA CAFE nonsense, the SAME EXACT motor used in other parts of the world has FAR different viscosity recommendations.
For example, the same Honda motor that here "needs" a 5W-20, in most other parts of the world you are NOT supposed to use a 5W-30 oil beyond 0 C to +10 C (+32 F to +50 F).
No mention at all of any xW-20 oils. Same as with Ford products in other parts of the world.
FYI: Toyota in Australia generally recommends a 20W-50. Here, 5W-30, same motor.
What gives??
Since energy costs are easily 3X to 4X what they are here, you would think the Europeans would all jump on the bandwagon to get their theoretical 0.6% "gain" in fuel economy. Or do they know something we don't??
Their definition of a "light" oil is a 5W-30, and recently to meet the VW 506.x spec, Castrol developed their SLX II LongLife 0W-30.
It's hard to find detailed specs on this oil, but the pour point is rated at -39 C. Must be a beefy additive package to handle 24 month or 50,000km OCI!
On the subject of engine warranty, if anything DOES go wrong, you would probably need proof of having it serviced by the dealer anyway.
Car makers appear to have invented the old saying "excuses are like a** holes, everybody gots one and they all stink!"
I know that with my 2000 GMC Sierra pickup and Vortec 5.3 litre V8, when brand new with the 5W-30 oil, it made tickticktick noises hot and CLACKCLACKCLACK noises cold startup.
I've had 4 years and 67,000km to play with it, and in winter temps, especially colder than -20 C, it runs best on Mobil 1 0W-30.
In summer, especially towing my +8,000 lb trailer, that motor seems happiest with a heavy oil. At least 10W-30, preferably heavier.
In summer 2001 I towed the trailer down to Utah and Nevada and back, hitting temps +110 F. I had Mobil 1 15W-50 and it worked great. No, I would NOT use that oil in winter, but in blazing hot temps, it shines.
So, we're between a rock and a hard place. Do you use "common sense" and match the viscosity to your ambient temps and work load, or do you pray the 5W-20 or 5W-30 oil works as advertised?
Once you're off warranty, the dealer will tell you "TFB sir, you are SOL."
Jerry
On the one hand, thanks to the EPA CAFE "police," it seems every maker has to recommend the lightest possible oil to get that theoretical 0.6% to 1.6% "gain" in fleet economy. That builds CAFE "credits" to minimise or eliminate EPA fines.
Along with that argument, how long are most engine warranties? 3/36?? Even the Hyundai with 10/100 must have some catchy "gotcha's" and if I recall Hyundai until VERY recently used to recommend heavier viscosity oils.
On the other hand, and this is where I become VERY suspicious of the EPA CAFE nonsense, the SAME EXACT motor used in other parts of the world has FAR different viscosity recommendations.
For example, the same Honda motor that here "needs" a 5W-20, in most other parts of the world you are NOT supposed to use a 5W-30 oil beyond 0 C to +10 C (+32 F to +50 F).
No mention at all of any xW-20 oils. Same as with Ford products in other parts of the world.
FYI: Toyota in Australia generally recommends a 20W-50. Here, 5W-30, same motor.
What gives??
Since energy costs are easily 3X to 4X what they are here, you would think the Europeans would all jump on the bandwagon to get their theoretical 0.6% "gain" in fuel economy. Or do they know something we don't??
Their definition of a "light" oil is a 5W-30, and recently to meet the VW 506.x spec, Castrol developed their SLX II LongLife 0W-30.
It's hard to find detailed specs on this oil, but the pour point is rated at -39 C. Must be a beefy additive package to handle 24 month or 50,000km OCI!
On the subject of engine warranty, if anything DOES go wrong, you would probably need proof of having it serviced by the dealer anyway.
Car makers appear to have invented the old saying "excuses are like a** holes, everybody gots one and they all stink!"
I know that with my 2000 GMC Sierra pickup and Vortec 5.3 litre V8, when brand new with the 5W-30 oil, it made tickticktick noises hot and CLACKCLACKCLACK noises cold startup.
I've had 4 years and 67,000km to play with it, and in winter temps, especially colder than -20 C, it runs best on Mobil 1 0W-30.
In summer, especially towing my +8,000 lb trailer, that motor seems happiest with a heavy oil. At least 10W-30, preferably heavier.
In summer 2001 I towed the trailer down to Utah and Nevada and back, hitting temps +110 F. I had Mobil 1 15W-50 and it worked great. No, I would NOT use that oil in winter, but in blazing hot temps, it shines.
So, we're between a rock and a hard place. Do you use "common sense" and match the viscosity to your ambient temps and work load, or do you pray the 5W-20 or 5W-30 oil works as advertised?
Once you're off warranty, the dealer will tell you "TFB sir, you are SOL."
Jerry
i read that toyota down under specifies 20w50,but do they have the same emissions equipment?here in cali the laws are the most stringent in the nation,europe even more so[?].i think that is why low sulphur gas,diesel and motoroils are the rage now.emissions friendly.eventhough sulphur is considered a lubricant.my toyota manual says 10w30 maybe used if 5w30 is not available,but return to 5w30 at the next oci.no mention of climatic conditions or warranty regarding 10w30.my dealer and a few others say there is "alot of engineering behind it"
[ March 07, 2004, 06:36 PM: Message edited by: moontan ]
[ March 07, 2004, 06:36 PM: Message edited by: moontan ]
I carefully considered all these points I have a 03 mustang 3.8 and run 5w30 penzoil If a problem arises I will Just Change the oil back to 5w 20 before taking it to the dealer. If a question arises just say you have been using the other stuff.
If I were you I would keep some dirty 5w-20 and a half dirty filter around in case you need to swap. It would look kinda awkward if you went in with absolutely brand new clean oil. Then again, I tend to be excessive.
I struggled with this when I first got my '02 Ranger. "20 weight??? Forgetaboutit!! Might as well pour water in there!!"
Then I found this site and started seeing all the great UOA's on 5w20. I now have no problem with 5w20 in my Ford and 5w30 in my Chevy.
Patman
Staff member
My wife's 2000 Civic calls for 6000km intervals, but since the beginning I have been doing as high as 11,000km, and most recently 8000km intervals. I'm not worried though, in the rare instance something went wrong with this engine, they would be able to see the engine's internals are super clean and they'd believe me if I told them the oil had been done every 6000km.
You bet the Australians have emissions controls (Catalytic convertors, etc), have had this in most of their cars since the late 80's.quote:
Originally posted by moontan:
i read that toyota down under specifies 20w50,but do they have the same emissions equipment?here in cali the laws are the most stringent in the nation,europe even more so[?].i think that is why low sulphur gas,diesel and motoroils are the rage now.emissions friendly.eventhough sulphur is considered a lubricant.my toyota manual says 10w30 maybe used if 5w30 is not available,but return to 5w30 at the next oci.no mention of climatic conditions or warranty regarding 10w30.my dealer and a few others say there is "alot of engineering behind it"
Even Canada jumped on the emission-control bandwagon. My 1984 Ford F-150 with 302 V8 was assembled in Windsor, Ontario.
It came from the factory with the wide-neck filler to accept leaded gas nozzles. No catalytic convertor, no A.I.R. pump, and there was a factory EGR blockoff plate.
And it still ran like a P.O.S. Ford! Put on MSD ignition, Edelbrock intake, and Holley four barrel and it ran nice after that.
The 1985 Ford's came with the fuel injected 302's and those had emissions.
When you compare the sulfur levels in Europe and North America, we have WAY higher sulfur levels. The issue of lubricity is nonsense, as fuel system components made within the past +20 years have not needed the extra lubricity.
Indeed, in South American countries where their crude has very high sulfur levels, the motor oil quickly becomes acidic.
Next time you see your dealer, ask why the same motor in Australia needs a 20W-50? Is there a lot of "engineering" behind that one too?
Jerry
I'm not even sure if you can even get Mobil 1 15W-50 in Australia, except maybe in barrels. Oddly enough, you can NOT get Mobil 1 5W-50 here in North America!
Cripes, you don't even NEED to worry about cold temp pumping performance, yet you have a 5W-50! Maybe we can swap? I'll trade you my 15W-50 for your 5W-50?? Just a thought ...
The Toyota Australia web site goes on and on about their "wonderful" (I'm being sarcastic I guess) factory-recommended fluids.
Apparently, you're supposed to use their special 10W-30 in all VVT-i motors. Otherwise, you should use the Toyota 20W-50. This isn't a synthetic.
Diesel motors are supposed to use the Toyota Diesel 20W-50. At least Toyota of Australia shares all this information, the Toyota network here in North America is tight-lipped over it.
Check out the URL at:
http://www.partsservice.toyota.com.au
Right below the picture of the Land Cruiser and Steve Irwin, click on "More" by Toyota Genuine Parts.
Then click "Motor Oils Range." You will see that Toyota makes a 20W-50 JUST for their LD diesel motors.
Or, if you click on "Motor Oils" you can then download an Adobe Acrobat pdf for Toyota Genuine Motor Oils.
Toyota of Australia also has a Freephone number listed, so why not try it?
I'm sure that Castrol and Fuchs in Australia offer a 20W-50, don't they?? Paging Doug Hillary, could Doug Hillary please answer the telephone??
Oh, I just got back today after taking another look at the Echo Hatchback at a Toyota dealer. They have a broadband Internet connection for customers to use, so I showed the Service Manager the link I posted above.
Then I questioned him as to why Toyota makes us use a 5W-30 even in hot summer. His answer?
"Because they make us, that's why. I don't have any say in the matter."
I suggested to him that if I bought the Echo Hatchback, I'd run Mobil 1 0W-30 in cold winter and Mobil 1 Truck & SUV 5W-40 in hot summer. I showed him the Mobil product data sheets.
He thought that was a great idea. I truly do think the EPA CAFE has most dealers over a barrel.
Jerry
That Toyota site is interesting reading. Can't see what brand the oils are though.
I bought a Nissan a year or so back from a joint Toyota/ Nissan/ Diahatsu dealership and the only oils they used in their motors were a Mobil 7.5-30 blend and M1 5w-50. I changed out the dino blend at 1,000k's and have put my own oil in since. I am not putting M1 5w-50 in my 2 ltr turbo!
I wonder what the handbooks say here as to the grade that is to be used. My Nissan manual gave a whole range depending on temp & driving conditions. I assume the Toyotas would be the same. BTW: There are some places here that get cold. Canberra in ACT ? Calling Sprintman!
[ March 09, 2004, 02:54 AM: Message edited by: theguru ]
I bought a Nissan a year or so back from a joint Toyota/ Nissan/ Diahatsu dealership and the only oils they used in their motors were a Mobil 7.5-30 blend and M1 5w-50. I changed out the dino blend at 1,000k's and have put my own oil in since. I am not putting M1 5w-50 in my 2 ltr turbo!
I wonder what the handbooks say here as to the grade that is to be used. My Nissan manual gave a whole range depending on temp & driving conditions. I assume the Toyotas would be the same. BTW: There are some places here that get cold. Canberra in ACT ? Calling Sprintman!
[ March 09, 2004, 02:54 AM: Message edited by: theguru ]
Heyjay - 5w50 too thin for Oz ? Remember, we also have Fuchs Titan 0w20 on sale down here too !
That Toyota webpage is very interesting. My father has a 1995 Lexus LS400. I know that Lexus Australia do not recommend synthetic oil for the LS400. The requirement is simple - 10w30. The last OCI service document described the oil as "10w30 semi synth SJ". I'm pretty sure it's the oil shown on the above link to the Toyota Oz website. Does anyone know which oil company makes the Toyota-branded oil for Toyota Australia ?
That Toyota webpage is very interesting. My father has a 1995 Lexus LS400. I know that Lexus Australia do not recommend synthetic oil for the LS400. The requirement is simple - 10w30. The last OCI service document described the oil as "10w30 semi synth SJ". I'm pretty sure it's the oil shown on the above link to the Toyota Oz website. Does anyone know which oil company makes the Toyota-branded oil for Toyota Australia ?
Losiho,
I don't want to put words into HeyJey's mouth, but I think that where he's coming from, is that we don't NEED a 5W-50.....especially not when a 15W-50 is considered acceptable for an area that is heaps colder.
Given the prevelance of 20W-50s in our market, and that Mobil can make a 20W-50 synth with a -50(something) pour point, we don't really need 5Ws.
And less V.I. would be good across the nullaboar.
I don't want to put words into HeyJey's mouth, but I think that where he's coming from, is that we don't NEED a 5W-50.....especially not when a 15W-50 is considered acceptable for an area that is heaps colder.
Given the prevelance of 20W-50s in our market, and that Mobil can make a 20W-50 synth with a -50(something) pour point, we don't really need 5Ws.
And less V.I. would be good across the nullaboar.
BTW, there was a big article in the car mags a few years ago, that Toyota had signed a deal, and all of their "Toyota" Brand oils were now being made by Castrol.
:yawn:
Castrol want me to use GTX Magnatec in my 3 litre, 145hp, direct injected, turbodiesel.
I wonder what the special diesel oil actually IS.
:yawn:
Castrol want me to use GTX Magnatec in my 3 litre, 145hp, direct injected, turbodiesel.
I wonder what the special diesel oil actually IS.
Shannow:
Good question. When you consider that Mobil here in North America claims their Mobil 1 15W-50 is "safe" to - 37 C or -35 F, what would you gain with a 5W-50??
When I lived in Salt Lake City, Utah, I had my 1990 Toyota 4Runner with 3.0 litre V6. I ran Mobil 1 15W-50 year round.
Even spending the night at a ski resort in the mountains, when it would get to -10 F or -23 C, there were no startup issues at all: instant oil pressure and no noise whatsoever.
In those temps, I would be leery of a mineral-based 20W-50.
The issue of who makes the dealer-branded oil is a good question. I would imagine in most cases it would be the lowest bidder who meets the specs.
I find it interesting that for my Canadian market 1990 4Runner, the made in Canada owner manual suggested a 5W-30 in winter and a 10W-30 in summer.
The shop manual, which was made in Japan and filled with grammer and typo errors, had a much more extensive viscosity chart. It listed 10W-40, 15W-40, 20W-50, 15W-50, etc above a certain temp.
I find it very curious that after I asked the Service Manager all the picky questions about the 2004 Toyota Echo Hatchback, then showed him the Toyota Australia site, he changed his tune on running a 5W-30 year round.
Actually, in my climate the regular 5W-30 is useless in temps colder than -30 C or -20 F. At -40 you had better be using a light synthetic, like Mobil 1 0W-30.
Jerry
Good question. When you consider that Mobil here in North America claims their Mobil 1 15W-50 is "safe" to - 37 C or -35 F, what would you gain with a 5W-50??
When I lived in Salt Lake City, Utah, I had my 1990 Toyota 4Runner with 3.0 litre V6. I ran Mobil 1 15W-50 year round.
Even spending the night at a ski resort in the mountains, when it would get to -10 F or -23 C, there were no startup issues at all: instant oil pressure and no noise whatsoever.
In those temps, I would be leery of a mineral-based 20W-50.
The issue of who makes the dealer-branded oil is a good question. I would imagine in most cases it would be the lowest bidder who meets the specs.
I find it interesting that for my Canadian market 1990 4Runner, the made in Canada owner manual suggested a 5W-30 in winter and a 10W-30 in summer.
The shop manual, which was made in Japan and filled with grammer and typo errors, had a much more extensive viscosity chart. It listed 10W-40, 15W-40, 20W-50, 15W-50, etc above a certain temp.
I find it very curious that after I asked the Service Manager all the picky questions about the 2004 Toyota Echo Hatchback, then showed him the Toyota Australia site, he changed his tune on running a 5W-30 year round.
Actually, in my climate the regular 5W-30 is useless in temps colder than -30 C or -20 F. At -40 you had better be using a light synthetic, like Mobil 1 0W-30.
Jerry
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