Definition of "Synthetic" Question

[7TFord]

Was roaming around the Elf oil site the other day and was curious as to how they classify a "Synthetic". Have been using their Evolution SXR for over a year now but didn't pay any attention to the oil compositon at the time. Just noticed that the Elf products seem to have been superceeded by Total oils for what ever reason but is still the same company I think. This was the Elf Canada site in which the MSDS's are listed. One product offered under their "Auto Synthetic" heading is the Total Quartz Energy 9000 0w30 labeled as 100% synthetic in the info and indeed on the MSDS "The product is made from synthetic base oils (Polyalfaolefins)". The 5/40 is listed there also as 100% but shows up as - "Petroleum-derived from severely refined mineral-base product in which the polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (PCA or PAH) content, measured by IP 346, is less than 3%".

The 10/50 is PAO and the 5/30 isn't. They do use the term "Synthetic Technology" at times rather than "Synthetic Oil" but not in coinciding with the mineral based fluids. Is there a grey area in the description...."Petroleum-derived severely refined mineral-base product in which the polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (PCA or PAH) content, measured by IP 346, is less than 3%" that qualifies it as synthetic by definition? The Quartz Future 9000 5/30 is going to cost me around $9.00 per litre which is about what I've been paying for the SXR, and that is buying it by the 3x5L jugs. Am I waisting my money based on the product description?

 

[BarkerMan]

Synthetic is a pretty much roll your own kind of subject when it comes to engine oil. No one out there is going to tell you much about their formulations. Some like Amsoil, Red Line and RLI are a little more straight forward about their brews but most are not. The best you can do is your research. Once you have jumped in there are not too many bad choices if you use some common sense.

What oil are you considering and what is your situation?

 

[PT1]

 

[ProfPS]

Anything that is not old school refined dino

 

[Max_Wander]

I think refined oil, even highly refined oils (GrIII) should all be labelled as such (highly refined mineral oil base stocks). Alas, I have a tendancy to call things as they are, and no one likes that. People like it when you lie to them to make them feel good, big and important, like a fat chick who wants to be told that she doesnt look like a rhinoceros in that dress.

Some, primarily overseas, oil comapanies use 'highly refined' to refer to GrIII. I respect that. Oils derived from gasses and actual esterification reactions *should* be termed as synthetic. Alas, no Lexus owner in north America would ever call it a Toyota, and Acura drivers would never call it a Honda. So given this north american pasttime of self-administered-delusion, why call an expensive, highly refined oil what it actually is, when one can feel indignified by thinking they just bought "synthetic"?

 

[Titan]

My signature is a quote from a respected oil analysis expert...

 

[XPR]

Synthetic oil is oil consisting of chemical compounds which were not originally present in crude oil (petroleum) but were artificially made (synthesized) from other compounds.

 

[bruce381]

Then thats GPII and GPIII
bruce

 

[ProfPS]

As per my college geology professor explained in a natural resources course, circa 1983: synthetic oil is oil that has been extracted from the ground using methods or process other than direct pumping. For example, using steam to extract oil from shale, or other porous sedimentary rock.

 

[Pablo]

Originally Posted By: ProfPS
As per my college geology professor explained in a natural resources course, circa 1983: synthetic oil is oil that has been extracted from the ground using methods or process other than direct pumping. For example, using steam to extract oil from shale, or other porous sedimentary rock.


That may define "synthetic" crude oil, but doesn't work for motor or gear oil or any other lubricant. I don't think in some of those cases the crude is chemically changed, just heated and motivated.

 

[Johnny]

Originally Posted By: Pablo
Originally Posted By: ProfPS
As per my college geology professor explained in a natural resources course, circa 1983: synthetic oil is oil that has been extracted from the ground using methods or process other than direct pumping. For example, using steam to extract oil from shale, or other porous sedimentary rock.


That may define "synthetic" crude oil, but doesn't work for motor or gear oil or any other lubricant. I don't think in some of those cases the crude is chemically changed, just heated and motivated.


Motivated to do what?

 

[Pablo]

Don't make me use bathroom references.

 

[Johnny]

Originally Posted By: Pablo
Don't make me use bathroom references.

 

[mxhdroom]

Is it safe to say "dino" oils are solvent refined, while Gp II/Gp III "synthetic" oils are hydrocracked?

 

[va3ux]

Originally Posted By: mxhdroom
Is it safe to say "dino" oils are solvent refined, while Gp II/Gp III "synthetic" oils are hydrocracked?


They're still 'dino' oils even if they are GpII or III. They're just more refined than Gp I (and via different technologies).

GP III started to be called "synthetic" because it's performance and characteristics began to closely approach the performance and characteristics of what had traditionally been called 'synthetic' oil. What we traditionally called synthetic oil, is oil that is man-made : it didn't start out as oil that we pumped from the ground and then refined; rather it was built in a chemical process from molecules that we isolated (olefins for example) in another chemical process. PAO and Ester based oils are examples.

Think of "true synthetic oil" as akin to something like PVC plastic, which is a synthetic product, not a natural product that has been simply pulled from the earth and refined. PVC is built from individual molecules of vinyl chloride monomer gas. The vinyl chloride monomer molecules themselves are built in another process, and the raw material for building the vinyl chloride molecules is ethylene which I *believe* is made from methane (Natural Gas). PAO and Ester oils have a similar lineage (but different chemistry) - there's nothing natural about them at all. They are man-made : "synthetic".

 

[JAG]

Philosophical Question:
If an unsaturated hydrocarbon molecule that was in crude oil becomes saturated (with hydrogen atoms) through processing, is the new molecule one that was in crude oil?

 

[mxhdroom]

I guess what I meant to say was (so why didn't I say it the first time) - is the difference between a conventional oil and a Gp II or Gp III oil, all of which are crude-based, simply the method of refinement?

The reason I ask is that I run Petro-Canada 5W-30 Synthetic in the Miata, and Petro-Canada 5W-30 Maximum (dino) in the Nissan. The specs are very similar. If I look at the MSDS for both oils, they both state under Composition: "Mixture of severely hydrotreated and hydrocracked base oil (petroleum)." Both list the same ingredients per CAS# (although I suppose the percentage of those ingredients may differ from Synthetic to Maximum). So, if the specs are almost the same, and the composition of the oil is the same, why do I pay more for the "synthetic" than the dino, and why would I run the synthetic at all? Longer TBN life?
Enquiring minds want to know.

Sorry, I'm relatively new to this so bear with me.

G.

 

[va3ux]

Originally Posted By: JAG
Philosophical Question:
If an unsaturated hydrocarbon molecule that was in crude oil becomes saturated (with hydrogen atoms) through processing, is the new molecule one that was in crude oil?


I would think so. But there are so many complex unsaturated HCs in crude oil that once hydrogenation occurs, the end molecule may not look much like the starting the molecule, especially if the initial molecule was aromatic and/or had sulphur or nitrogen in it.

It's a long long time since I was involved with this stuff. Memory is fading.

 

[lewk]

Synthetic means man-made, Redline, Amsoil,Mobil 1,etc... these group lll highly refined crudes are ostensibly synthetic, but not the real mc coy. hydrotreated, dewaxed molecularly uniform hydrocarbons is better than what we had in recent years but its still dino!

 

[dwendt44]

It all comes out of the ground.
It all is 'refined' in some way.
Since the end result is very similar in actual use, why is there such hysteria about 'real' synthetic v. faux synthetic??
'real' synthetic costs a bit more, but is the difference 'where the rubber meets the road' is small.