Very unfortunate outcome, though it does seem kind of crazy to be driving open wheel cars three-wide in a tight pack beside a curving wall at those speeds.
Dan Wheldon
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Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
After seeing these cars going 170-180mph in Baltimore that at those speeds its a big risk. But they love what they do and accept the risks.
I was sorta insulted with ABC's coverage and Eddie Cheever in the booth. Blame game gets real old.
That's where OHandS was back in the industrial revolution, and in China today. Like it or not, this WILL come to racing.
Smokey, a safety advocate, argued that motorsport is only a crash or two away from banning.
After seeing these cars going 170-180mph in Baltimore that at those speeds its a big risk. But they love what they do and accept the risks.
I was sorta insulted with ABC's coverage and Eddie Cheever in the booth. Blame game gets real old.
That's where OHandS was back in the industrial revolution, and in China today. Like it or not, this WILL come to racing.
Smokey, a safety advocate, argued that motorsport is only a crash or two away from banning.
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
Smokey, a safety advocate, argued that motorsport is only a crash or two away from banning.
That's a knee jerk reaction that will never happen.
Danny Wheldon's passing is a tragedy but modern open wheel racing has never been safer and will continue to get safer. There hasn't been a fatality in F1 since 1994.
But I do agree that something has to be done about the three abreast racing in open wheel cars on ovals.
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
Smokey, a safety advocate, argued that motorsport is only a crash or two away from banning.
That's a knee jerk reaction that will never happen.
Danny Wheldon's passing is a tragedy but modern open wheel racing has never been safer and will continue to get safer. There hasn't been a fatality in F1 since 1994.
But I do agree that something has to be done about the three abreast racing in open wheel cars on ovals.
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Smokey, a safety advocate, argued that motorsport is only a crash or two away from banning.
Yunick??
Yes, the "killer Bees" in the WRC proved that argument (at least for a classification) quite substantially.
Smokey, a safety advocate, argued that motorsport is only a crash or two away from banning.
Yunick??
Yes, the "killer Bees" in the WRC proved that argument (at least for a classification) quite substantially.
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
Smokey, a safety advocate, argued that motorsport is only a crash or two away from banning.
That's a knee jerk reaction that will never happen.
Danny Wheldon's passing is a tragedy but modern open wheel racing has never been safer and will continue to get safer. There hasn't been a fatality in F1 since 1994.
But I do agree that something has to be done about the three abreast racing in open wheel cars on ovals.
I'll throw in my two cents here. There's no question that racing has become a lot safer over the past few years, but it's still a fact that the high risks remain. Despite that, I don't see any reason why racing will be banned.
However, in my opinion, this lastest situation was caused by the continuous ineptness of Indycar management. After all, this was the same organization that decided to resume racing at this year's Loudon, NH race under damp track conditions. End result, a instanteous multi-car crash and a double-bird from Will Power to Brian Barnhart.
Now to explain the faults of Indycar officials for this weekend... All of the drivers were concerned about the 225 MPH speeds on a track that small (1 1/2 miles) making them very nervous before the start of Sunday's race. Plus, I don't think there should have been 34 cars on the track consisting of some inexperienced drivers. Add to that the current rules with aerodynamics leading to NASCAR-style close-quarters Daytona-Talladega racing. Also, I think Robin Miller said on Speed that adding on an aero device [Gurney flap?? Wicker-bill maybe?] would have spread out the field and reduced the possibility of contact. Finally, add in the fact that wheel-to-wheel contact has led to disasterous results in the recent past, not to mention to what happened Sunday.
Like I said before... auto racing is full of dangerous risks, but that's no excuse for the ridiculous conditions that the drivers faced in Las Vegas. That in my mind was pure stupidity. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Indycar management faces even more scrutiny and leads to the resignation of one or more key officials.
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
Smokey, a safety advocate, argued that motorsport is only a crash or two away from banning.
That's a knee jerk reaction that will never happen.
Danny Wheldon's passing is a tragedy but modern open wheel racing has never been safer and will continue to get safer. There hasn't been a fatality in F1 since 1994.
But I do agree that something has to be done about the three abreast racing in open wheel cars on ovals.
I'll throw in my two cents here. There's no question that racing has become a lot safer over the past few years, but it's still a fact that the high risks remain. Despite that, I don't see any reason why racing will be banned.
However, in my opinion, this lastest situation was caused by the continuous ineptness of Indycar management. After all, this was the same organization that decided to resume racing at this year's Loudon, NH race under damp track conditions. End result, a instanteous multi-car crash and a double-bird from Will Power to Brian Barnhart.
Now to explain the faults of Indycar officials for this weekend... All of the drivers were concerned about the 225 MPH speeds on a track that small (1 1/2 miles) making them very nervous before the start of Sunday's race. Plus, I don't think there should have been 34 cars on the track consisting of some inexperienced drivers. Add to that the current rules with aerodynamics leading to NASCAR-style close-quarters Daytona-Talladega racing. Also, I think Robin Miller said on Speed that adding on an aero device [Gurney flap?? Wicker-bill maybe?] would have spread out the field and reduced the possibility of contact. Finally, add in the fact that wheel-to-wheel contact has led to disasterous results in the recent past, not to mention to what happened Sunday.
Like I said before... auto racing is full of dangerous risks, but that's no excuse for the ridiculous conditions that the drivers faced in Las Vegas. That in my mind was pure stupidity. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Indycar management faces even more scrutiny and leads to the resignation of one or more key officials.
One correction I wanted to make... the aero feature that I was trying to refer to was the Handford Device. Sorry for the error.
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
After seeing these cars going 170-180mph in Baltimore that at those speeds its a big risk. But they love what they do and accept the risks.
I was sorta insulted with ABC's coverage and Eddie Cheever in the booth. Blame game gets real old.
That's where OHandS was back in the industrial revolution, and in China today. Like it or not, this WILL come to racing.
Smokey, a safety advocate, argued that motorsport is only a crash or two away from banning.
I think what Smokey said was closer to: a full race car launched into a crowd a fans, is what could end racing.
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
After seeing these cars going 170-180mph in Baltimore that at those speeds its a big risk. But they love what they do and accept the risks.
I was sorta insulted with ABC's coverage and Eddie Cheever in the booth. Blame game gets real old.
That's where OHandS was back in the industrial revolution, and in China today. Like it or not, this WILL come to racing.
Smokey, a safety advocate, argued that motorsport is only a crash or two away from banning.
I think what Smokey said was closer to: a full race car launched into a crowd a fans, is what could end racing.
Originally Posted By: mercuryblues
Like I said before... auto racing is full of dangerous risks, but that's no excuse for the ridiculous conditions that the drivers faced in Las Vegas. That in my mind was pure stupidity. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Indycar management faces even more scrutiny and leads to the resignation of one or more key officials.
I tend to watch Formula 1 more, but I caught this year's Toronto Indy when I overslept through the F1 race that weekend. One thing struck me. One of Penske's cars did something to warrant an investigation. He was assessed a drive through penalty. Shortly thereafter, Team Penske was on the air, being interviewed, complaining about the penalty. The penalty then gets rescinded. If he tried that in Formula 1, there would be heck to pay. Lewis Hamilton can't sneeze in his car this year without taking a drive through penalty, and he's certainly not a bigmouth by the standards of other racing series.
In Formula 1, you get a penalty, you serve it. It doesn't matter who you are. Aside from track issues and far too much traffic in a small area on the Indy side, I do appreciate what Formula 1's rules have accomplished. Taking a shortcut over the rules will either result in a penalty or a collision and won't provide any benefits.
This fatal collision is just so unfortunate. These guys are out there, doing what they love, competing, and entertaining us. Crashes are not entertaining, even minor ones. The best races are when everyone finishes, if you ask me.
Like I said before... auto racing is full of dangerous risks, but that's no excuse for the ridiculous conditions that the drivers faced in Las Vegas. That in my mind was pure stupidity. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Indycar management faces even more scrutiny and leads to the resignation of one or more key officials.
I tend to watch Formula 1 more, but I caught this year's Toronto Indy when I overslept through the F1 race that weekend. One thing struck me. One of Penske's cars did something to warrant an investigation. He was assessed a drive through penalty. Shortly thereafter, Team Penske was on the air, being interviewed, complaining about the penalty. The penalty then gets rescinded. If he tried that in Formula 1, there would be heck to pay. Lewis Hamilton can't sneeze in his car this year without taking a drive through penalty, and he's certainly not a bigmouth by the standards of other racing series.
In Formula 1, you get a penalty, you serve it. It doesn't matter who you are. Aside from track issues and far too much traffic in a small area on the Indy side, I do appreciate what Formula 1's rules have accomplished. Taking a shortcut over the rules will either result in a penalty or a collision and won't provide any benefits.
This fatal collision is just so unfortunate. These guys are out there, doing what they love, competing, and entertaining us. Crashes are not entertaining, even minor ones. The best races are when everyone finishes, if you ask me.
Originally Posted By: MarkM66
I think what Smokey said was closer to: a full race car launched into a crowd a fans, is what could end racing.
Quite correct, and I was going to come back and clarify...but life happened.
But the previous reference to Group B rallying is a good one also...eventually the obvious risks became overwhelmingly obvious, even to the sanctioning bodies
I think what Smokey said was closer to: a full race car launched into a crowd a fans, is what could end racing.
Quite correct, and I was going to come back and clarify...but life happened.
But the previous reference to Group B rallying is a good one also...eventually the obvious risks became overwhelmingly obvious, even to the sanctioning bodies
Originally Posted By: Garak
This fatal collision is just so unfortunate. These guys are out there, doing what they love, competing, and entertaining us. Crashes are not entertaining, even minor ones. The best races are when everyone finishes, if you ask me.
I absolutely could not agree more with the above!
To me at least, you are NOT a motorsports fan if you are bloodthirsty, and pray for horrendous crashes (or worse).
I don't even like seeing the beautiful sheetmetal/carbon fiber-kevlar/composites getting torn-up/shredded, let alone the human beings piloting such!
In a way, it kind of reminds me of the John Hiatt song, "Perfectly Good Guitar".
This fatal collision is just so unfortunate. These guys are out there, doing what they love, competing, and entertaining us. Crashes are not entertaining, even minor ones. The best races are when everyone finishes, if you ask me.
I absolutely could not agree more with the above!
To me at least, you are NOT a motorsports fan if you are bloodthirsty, and pray for horrendous crashes (or worse).
I don't even like seeing the beautiful sheetmetal/carbon fiber-kevlar/composites getting torn-up/shredded, let alone the human beings piloting such!
In a way, it kind of reminds me of the John Hiatt song, "Perfectly Good Guitar".
Gotta have a few crashes. That's how you know they're competing at the limit. But the equipment must be designed to minimize driver injury when the inevitable occurs. When a fatality or serious injury happens, something usually needs to change with either the course, the cars, the safety equipment, or the regulations to make it unlikely that there could ever be a similar fatal incident. If nothing changes, it was just a pointless death. If changes are made, then at least that driver sacrificed himself for the safety of future drivers.
Originally Posted By: dailydriver
To me at least, you are NOT a motorsports fan if you are bloodthirsty, and pray for horrendous crashes (or worse).
I'm no fan of collisions, period. At the very least, they cost teams money and slow down races. We already know what the worst is.
There's nothing more boring than a race that has a whack of yellow or red flags, ongoing for lap after lap. That's not racing. Yellow flags are about as exciting as watching people labour their way through a construction zone. I'm the one cheering for the crane operator and the retrieval team so they restore the race to what it was.
Or, you see a driver taken out of the race at no fault of his own, due to someone else's foolishness wrecking his car. These guys want to make points, after all. And as you point out, seeing a beautiful piece of engineering damaged, let alone ruined, isn't my idea of fun. I love the races where there are no retirements.
Originally Posted By: rpn453
Gotta have a few crashes. That's how you know they're competing at the limit. But the equipment must be designed to minimize driver injury when the inevitable occurs.
I understand your first point, but I also enjoy seeing the skill involved in avoiding a collision, or even the luck.
As for the equipment design, I agree wholeheartedly. It is pretty gratifying to see someone walk out of a crash.
There always will be crashes, injuries, and fatalities. I don't doubt that. I don't want to see the sports dumbed down, either. As strict as F1 is with their rules, I think they're on the right track. You get carelessly aggressive there, and they will slap you down several places below your skill level, which I think is quite appropriate.
To me at least, you are NOT a motorsports fan if you are bloodthirsty, and pray for horrendous crashes (or worse).
I'm no fan of collisions, period. At the very least, they cost teams money and slow down races. We already know what the worst is.
There's nothing more boring than a race that has a whack of yellow or red flags, ongoing for lap after lap. That's not racing. Yellow flags are about as exciting as watching people labour their way through a construction zone. I'm the one cheering for the crane operator and the retrieval team so they restore the race to what it was.
Or, you see a driver taken out of the race at no fault of his own, due to someone else's foolishness wrecking his car. These guys want to make points, after all. And as you point out, seeing a beautiful piece of engineering damaged, let alone ruined, isn't my idea of fun. I love the races where there are no retirements.
Originally Posted By: rpn453
Gotta have a few crashes. That's how you know they're competing at the limit. But the equipment must be designed to minimize driver injury when the inevitable occurs.
I understand your first point, but I also enjoy seeing the skill involved in avoiding a collision, or even the luck.
There always will be crashes, injuries, and fatalities. I don't doubt that. I don't want to see the sports dumbed down, either. As strict as F1 is with their rules, I think they're on the right track. You get carelessly aggressive there, and they will slap you down several places below your skill level, which I think is quite appropriate.
I gave up watching IndyCar races on short ovals years ago. I couldn't stand the carnage. At Texas, they would go 5 laps under green, have a multi-car crash, then do 10 laps under caution. This went on throughout the race. The traffic patterns change too fast, and the g-loadings on the drivers are too high for them to make all the correct split-second decisions that are required in a 2-3 hour race.
If they want to keep racing on ovals, they should race on wide, flat ones. Indy's OK. Bring back Pocono. They should also put fenders on the cars to keep them from launching off the ground when they clash wheels. Closed cockpits would also be smart to better protect driver's heads when they go into the catch fencing or hit the walls. I still remember Greg Moore's death in 1999. Ugly.
If they want to keep racing on ovals, they should race on wide, flat ones. Indy's OK. Bring back Pocono. They should also put fenders on the cars to keep them from launching off the ground when they clash wheels. Closed cockpits would also be smart to better protect driver's heads when they go into the catch fencing or hit the walls. I still remember Greg Moore's death in 1999. Ugly.
Originally Posted By: Garak
I understand your first point, but I also enjoy seeing the skill involved in avoiding a collision, or even the luck.
For sure; the saves and close calls are the best part of racing, and the best display of driver skill.
I like courses with plenty of run-off area, as long as they still lose significant time by running off and re-entering. Less chance of injury, less vehicle damage, and fewer red flags.
I understand your first point, but I also enjoy seeing the skill involved in avoiding a collision, or even the luck.
For sure; the saves and close calls are the best part of racing, and the best display of driver skill.
I like courses with plenty of run-off area, as long as they still lose significant time by running off and re-entering. Less chance of injury, less vehicle damage, and fewer red flags.
Originally Posted By: rpn453
I like courses with plenty of run-off area, as long as they still lose significant time by running off and re-entering. Less chance of injury, less vehicle damage, and fewer red flags.
Agreed. You mess up, you'll lose a whack of time, or even stall if you're not cautious. But, you're not hurting yourself or anyone else.
It seems oval tracks are built more for spectator convenience than are the road tracks, for obvious reasons. Oval racing isn't for me, but that's not the point. The tracks must be appropriate for the cars, that's all. Lots of people do like oval, and it certainly can be done safely.
I like courses with plenty of run-off area, as long as they still lose significant time by running off and re-entering. Less chance of injury, less vehicle damage, and fewer red flags.
Agreed. You mess up, you'll lose a whack of time, or even stall if you're not cautious. But, you're not hurting yourself or anyone else.
It seems oval tracks are built more for spectator convenience than are the road tracks, for obvious reasons. Oval racing isn't for me, but that's not the point. The tracks must be appropriate for the cars, that's all. Lots of people do like oval, and it certainly can be done safely.
I'm not going to get into the high speed oval "argument", but I attended the service today for Dan at Conseco Fieldhouse in Indy. I was taken by the serious thoughts and the humorous stories. I cried for only the second time a driver died racing(the other time was for Jimmy Clark). At times today, I was crying AND laughing.
I want to thank INDYCAR and Conseco Fieldhouse for having this service, and Dario, Tony and Bryan for their funny stories when all four were teammates....while their ending remarks brought back the tears.
RIP Danny Boy...God Speed...
I want to thank INDYCAR and Conseco Fieldhouse for having this service, and Dario, Tony and Bryan for their funny stories when all four were teammates....while their ending remarks brought back the tears.
RIP Danny Boy...God Speed...
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I love Indycars and F1 and most types of racing and this one was heartbreaker.
I met a few years ago and he was just genuine, nice guy, especially with kids. He didn't have to do what did with kids, but he did, despite the PR guys getting mad at him for being late.
What rough week as it started with the great Aussie V8s at Bathurst (first time on US TV) on a high. I'd love to drive those cars at Bathurst.
Then Dan, then the MotoGP crash.
I met a few years ago and he was just genuine, nice guy, especially with kids. He didn't have to do what did with kids, but he did, despite the PR guys getting mad at him for being late.
What rough week as it started with the great Aussie V8s at Bathurst (first time on US TV) on a high. I'd love to drive those cars at Bathurst.
Then Dan, then the MotoGP crash.
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