Cut Open Fram Ultra XG7317

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Umibozu

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Originally Posted By: RF Overlord
Tell me why I should use a FRAM Ultra at $9 when I can get a Motorcraft for under $4? I don't see the FRAM offering more than double the value...
Motorcrafts also make great filters and at a very competitive price.
 
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Originally Posted By: RF Overlord
Tell me why I should use a FRAM Ultra at $9 when I can get a Motorcraft for under $4? I don't see the FRAM offering more than double the value...
I'd disagree with you overall but it depends on how you apply the equation. Will you run a MC for 15K? Most people wouldn't (though in many cases, I think they could). The value of the differences in filtration efficiency (~94%@20um vs 99%@ 20um) is debatable from the wear perspective but the better efficiency, combined with almost double the capacity (~16g vs 30g in the size I use) allow for up to a safe-n-sane 15K OCI with a good oil. Plus, as you know, there are deals. I picked up a number of XG7317s for $6 and change recently, so if you shop-n-stock when a good opportunity comes, you can find a nice price of the FU. At the same time, you have a point. If all you are going to do is run a 5-7.5K OCI, a premium filter most certainly is redundant and will not offer a tangible payback. Also, I think in many cases, you can run 10K intervals with a good oil using a MC filter. MC probably wouldn't stand behind you in those cases (unless tht interval was spelled out by the OEM) but doing so would definitely be further increasing the value of a MC filter with minimal risk.
 

BlueOvalFitter

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Originally Posted By: RF Overlord
*Clarification* I don't mean to imply the Ultra is not a good filter. I think FRAM finally got it right this time, but it's still overpriced.
Again, I agree with you, except for the price part. I am still learning about oil filters and the advantages of the higher tier VS the basic ones. Would I pay $9 for a FU and change it at 15K miles? Yes. Will I change it at 15K miles? Probably not. Maybe 10K miles. But even letting my OCI go past 7.5K miles gives me nightmares. grin I can pinch a few pennies here and there to buy a FU, one day. smile
 

ZeeOSix

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You sure like saying FU a lot. LOL I wouldn't hesitate to run the FU to 10K with a good full synthetic oil. Just think on how many oil changes (labor and materials) you'll save.
 

Umibozu

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Originally Posted By: RF Overlord
Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
can a MC be used for 15K miles?
I'll concede that point, although I used to run MC FL400S filters for 10k intervals on my old Taurus. I don't see why an FL820S won't do at least the same, provided the engine is healthy. *Clarification* I don't mean to imply the Ultra is not a good filter. I think FRAM finally got it right this time, but it's still overpriced.
For synthetic media, wire mesh supported oil filters the FU are priced on the lower end of the spectrum. Cellulose based media oil filters will generally always be cheaper.
 

BlueOvalFitter

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Originally Posted By: Umibozu
For synthetic media, wire mesh supported oil filters the FU are priced on the lower end of the spectrum. Cellulose based media oil filters will generally always be cheaper.
I dunno. The NAPA Platinum is only $7.54. shrug
 

Umibozu

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Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
Originally Posted By: Umibozu
For synthetic media, wire mesh supported oil filters the FU are priced on the lower end of the spectrum. Cellulose based media oil filters will generally always be cheaper.
I dunno. The NAPA Platinum is only $7.54. shrug
Do you know if this a promo thing? I bought two Napa Platinums a few months ago and paid closer to $12. Might be time for me to stock up on these as well.
 

BlueOvalFitter

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Originally Posted By: Umibozu
Do you know if this a promo thing? I bought two Napa Platinums a few months ago and paid closer to $12. Might be time for me to stock up on these as well.
Honestly, I don't know. I just see all of my local NAPA's have them for this price.
 

BlueOvalFitter

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Originally Posted By: steve20
thanks U for the detailed high quality close up pics-I have one in my Honda now Steve
Um, wouldn't it work better "ON" the engine? hide ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ LOL crackmeup^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
 
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Originally Posted By: Falken
If they dump the plastic bypass and the leaf spring, I would move away from WIX once in a while. That is a nice looking filter. I can get a Wix synthetic filter and have none of the drawbacks I see in the pics posted above.
What drawbacks do you see with this filter? Thanks!
 
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Originally Posted By: wymi516
Originally Posted By: Falken
If they dump the plastic bypass and the leaf spring, I would move away from WIX once in a while. That is a nice looking filter. I can get a Wix synthetic filter and have none of the drawbacks I see in the pics posted above.
What drawbacks do you see with this filter? Thanks!
I'll address Falken and wymi at the same time. Falken: What failure have you seen of the plastic bypass and why is metal necessarily better? Good plastic often has better fatigue strength than most steel. In Fram's case, they extensively test their bypass to a bazillion or so cycles (see the video)... far more than any filter will ever do. And then there is the frequency of bypass events. The consensus among the engineers I interviewed was that it is "infrequent" and my testing is bearing this out (as you may recall, I have a differential pressure gauge setup on my F150 and I am monitoring and datalogging DP on a 12K mile P1 currently). Bottom line, I think it's unwise to lock oneself in to thinking that plastic is automatically bad and metal or some other material is automatically good. The same can be said for leaf springs vs coils. If you do a rough survey of oil filters in production, I think it's safe to say that leaf springs comprise the majority among the oil filters in production and it appears that few, if any, companies use one or the other exclusively. Nor is there a history of failure in either type that would give one the ammo to categorically state one or the other is "better." wymi: Drawbacks? None that are significant really, except perhaps the cost (which is really a steal considering it's capability). That's only a factor if you are not fully utilizing it's capabilities. I think the paintjob on the Ultra is kinda [censored]. The leaf spring and bypass valves have been discussed, but my strong opinion is that the other methods of doing those jobs are not "better" inherently, just different. Another road to the same place.
 
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Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
Originally Posted By: wymi516
Originally Posted By: Falken
If they dump the plastic bypass and the leaf spring, I would move away from WIX once in a while. That is a nice looking filter. I can get a Wix synthetic filter and have none of the drawbacks I see in the pics posted above.
What drawbacks do you see with this filter? Thanks!
I'll address Falken and wymi at the same time. Falken: What failure have you seen of the plastic bypass and why is metal necessarily better? Good plastic often has better fatigue strength than most steel. In Fram's case, they extensively test their bypass to a bazillion or so cycles (see the video)... far more than any filter will ever do. And then there is the frequency of bypass events. The consensus among the engineers I interviewed was that it is "infrequent" and my testing is bearing this out (as you may recall, I have a differential pressure gauge setup on my F150 and I am monitoring and datalogging DP on a 12K mile P1 currently). Bottom line, I think it's unwise to lock oneself in to thinking that plastic is automatically bad and metal or some other material is automatically good. The same can be said for leaf springs vs coils. If you do a rough survey of oil filters in production, I think it's safe to say that leaf springs comprise the majority among the oil filters in production and it appears that few, if any, companies use one or the other exclusively. Nor is there a history of failure in either type that would give one the ammo to categorically state one or the other is "better." wymi: Drawbacks? None that are significant really, except perhaps the cost (which is really a steal considering it's capability). That's only a factor if you are not fully utilizing it's capabilities. I think the paintjob on the Ultra is kinda [censored]. The leaf spring and bypass valves have been discussed, but my strong opinion is that the other methods of doing those jobs are not "better" inherently, just different. Another road to the same place.
Speaking as a Fram fan, I've used them exclusively for 26 years w/o issue, and playing devil's advocate; apparently the leaf spring is susceptible to jarring or can fall victim to an imperceptible dent which will fatigue it to the point of failure. That's how I read Fram's response in the other thread on the failed top of the line Fram Ultra. I currently have an Ultra in both of my vehicles including my new(er) Caddy. I'd be lying if I said I was ok with what Fram's answer inferred.
 

dnewton3

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Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
Originally Posted By: wymi516
Originally Posted By: Falken
If they dump the plastic bypass and the leaf spring, I would move away from WIX once in a while. That is a nice looking filter. I can get a Wix synthetic filter and have none of the drawbacks I see in the pics posted above.
What drawbacks do you see with this filter? Thanks!
I'll address Falken and wymi at the same time. Falken: What failure have you seen of the plastic bypass and why is metal necessarily better? Good plastic often has better fatigue strength than most steel. In Fram's case, they extensively test their bypass to a bazillion or so cycles (see the video)... far more than any filter will ever do. And then there is the frequency of bypass events. The consensus among the engineers I interviewed was that it is "infrequent" and my testing is bearing this out (as you may recall, I have a differential pressure gauge setup on my F150 and I am monitoring and datalogging DP on a 12K mile P1 currently). Bottom line, I think it's unwise to lock oneself in to thinking that plastic is automatically bad and metal or some other material is automatically good. The same can be said for leaf springs vs coils. If you do a rough survey of oil filters in production, I think it's safe to say that leaf springs comprise the majority among the oil filters in production and it appears that few, if any, companies use one or the other exclusively. Nor is there a history of failure in either type that would give one the ammo to categorically state one or the other is "better." wymi: Drawbacks? None that are significant really, except perhaps the cost (which is really a steal considering it's capability). That's only a factor if you are not fully utilizing it's capabilities. I think the paintjob on the Ultra is kinda [censored]. The leaf spring and bypass valves have been discussed, but my strong opinion is that the other methods of doing those jobs are not "better" inherently, just different. Another road to the same place.
Excellent summation as usual, Jim. I'll add this: who here has definitive proof that either of these characteristics (spring type or bypass material) shows a clear advantage over the other? I don't want to hear opinion; I am asking for PROOF! I want to see solid statistical data that shows either item has a superior/inferior position ... I doubt anyone here has such info, because as much as I've searched for it (including info in SAE files) I cannot find it. And as much as it makes some folks cringe, I'll throw in the whole "cardboard" end-cap issue just to confound things. I've seen NO data that suggests there is inherent failures with that system. Yes; Fram does "upgrade" to metal in their Ultra, but is that because there is true advantage, or (more likely) it is in response to a market cry. Those who are willing to pay $9 for a filter "expect" a metal end cap, regardless of whether there is a real advantage or not. There is nothing wrong with stating opinions; we call do it (including me). But for the sake of real, credible information dissemination, who here has tangible data that shows one system as "better" than another? Who can show that metal over nylon valves matter? Who can clearly define where coil or leaf springs are superior? Who has revealing data that metal does "better" than fiber at the media end cap? I know that I don't, and I've looked at this for a LONG time.
 

dnewton3

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Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
Originally Posted By: RF Overlord
Tell me why I should use a FRAM Ultra at $9 when I can get a Motorcraft for under $4? I don't see the FRAM offering more than double the value...
I'd disagree with you overall but it depends on how you apply the equation. Will you run a MC for 15K? Most people wouldn't (though in many cases, I think they could). The value of the differences in filtration efficiency (~94%@20um vs 99%@ 20um) is debatable from the wear perspective but the better efficiency, combined with almost double the capacity (~16g vs 30g in the size I use) allow for up to a safe-n-sane 15K OCI with a good oil. Plus, as you know, there are deals. I picked up a number of XG7317s for $6 and change recently, so if you shop-n-stock when a good opportunity comes, you can find a nice price of the FU. At the same time, you have a point. If all you are going to do is run a 5-7.5K OCI, a premium filter most certainly is redundant and will not offer a tangible payback. Also, I think in many cases, you can run 10K intervals with a good oil using a MC filter. MC probably wouldn't stand behind you in those cases (unless tht interval was spelled out by the OEM) but doing so would definitely be further increasing the value of a MC filter with minimal risk.
I'll sort of continue my rant from above with this quote here. Again I agree with Jim. When it comes to FCIs, and OCIs, most folks just wing it on guestimation and nothing more. Yes; 15k miles on an Ultra is pretty much an assured thing. But I'd not wince at 15k miles on many filters (excluding uber-cheap ones sourced from unreliable places). I'd easily go 15k miles on not just an Ultra, but a P1, Wix and even a M/C. And I'm putting my money where my mouth is ... I recently ran 10k miles on a Purolator Classic. I'm now running up to 15k miles on a FL-400 M/C, along with ST dino oil; I am currently 5k miles into this planned 15k mile OCI. Further, I not only use my own personal data, but the tens of thousands of UOAs I have in my data base. I see no clear delineation of wear data that shows super-duper filters being "better" in real world use. What we really get with premium filters is a much larger capacity to hold particulate, and therefore the potential for a much longer FCI. Of course, to glean the "potential", it has to be put into reality. If one does not extend the FCI, then the extra money spent on the filter is wasted. Most of you know that I the preach the "ROI" concept on lubes, but it's just as applicable to filters. And, unless I'm wrong here, Jim seems to be acknowledging that concept as well with filters. We all need a filter that is "good enough" to provide some low level of particulate loading for the ensured long life of our equipment. But past that OEM defined level, there exists a very steep law of diminishing return. You can spend a lot more on a filter, and show me lab tests that exude fantastic filtration, but unless you use that filter (in the field) to a point PAST where a NORMAL filter would fail, then it's moot. The real world wear data simply shows this as factual. Premium filters do NOT return statistically significant wear shifts unless you use them to a point where their advantage actually usurps the lesser alternative. For premium filters to excel past a normal filter, you have to greatly extend the FCI past where the normal filter fails. And that point is typically further than most folks are willing to accept and admit. Some folks see this as heresy, but I'm here to break down myths with real data, and let the bench racers sit content with there dogma. This filtration topic is very much sensitive to the individual situation, just as with lubes. You have to be able to clearly define control parameters, condemnation points, and then accurately track measurables to declare success or failure. It is obviously possible that some "dirty" running engines, with poor mechanical conditions, are not candidates for longer OCIs/FCIs. But there are also engines that run clean, are well cared for, and can blow way past the hyper-conservative approach most BITOGers take with their 5k mile M1 lubed, PureOne filtered grocery getters. I understand why this filter was taken off at 5k miles; it was for comparative purposes. That's OK for the stated purpose. But in general, to use an Ultra (or M1, or PureOne, etc) at 5k miles and then toss it out is a total and complete waste. And on top of that, you don't get "better" wear protection from it.
 
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I agree with Jim Allen and DN3. If I were a travelling salesman who puts a ton of miles on my car in a short time, the FRAM Ultra would be perfect, along with the Bosch D+, for allowing me to not have to climb under my car as often. I just don't see any advantage to using one for less than 10k miles, which I am not comfortable doing with my Marauder (due to the addition of the supercharger). Again, not knocking the FU (I like saying FU, too grin2 ) I simply believe its usefulness is very limited. Sidebar: What would happen if one used PU with an FU? Would the engine crumple up and disappear, like the house in Poltergeist?
 

BlueOvalFitter

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Originally Posted By: DuckRyder
Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
...But even letting my OCI go past 7.5K miles gives me nightmares. grin...
See, it is perfect for 2 OCI's hornets hide
NEVER! no-no grin JA and DN3, would there be any advantage to make an oil filter with both a leaf spring and a coil spring, or some kind of combination of both? shrug
 
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