Where can someone like myself find current NOACKs to compair? Ive spent the better part of last night and this morning looking throughout BITOG, but after doing so, I realized all of this research was old news...and of the old news, I found these values to be conflicting, dependent upon where they came from.
So...any place I can find current, consistant NOACK values?
Current NOACKs
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You can find the NOACKs for a number of 10W-30 in the oil study published on the amsoil corporate web site.
Haven't seen a lot of companies eager to publish that particular piece of info on their own oils.
But everything Ive read around here, somewhat disputes those numbers...alot of posters refer to NOACK numbers, but when they refer to them are they refering to the Amsoil site? Do we actually believe those numbers or is it just marketing? Besides the most current NOACK I read on the Ams site is dated 2003...not very current.
I think that as a whole, this board doesn't put much stock in NOACK numbers.
I'm sure many board members do pay attention to them, but I've also seen people argue that you can cheat on that test by doping your oil with a given additive load-out that won't neccessarily profit you in any application. Except for NOACK testing.
When I was first learning about oils, though, I do have to say I was very impressed by Amsoil's little charts. I wish everyone was as forthcoming with numbers and charts as Amsoil is. Heck, I can't even find out the TBN on Pennzoil Platinum on their stinking web site.
If a company won't print it's NOACK numbers, then you are pretty much out of luck. I don't know of an independent site with regularly updated NOACK numbers. The Amsoil data is somewhat dated, but there it is. It's not just made up crap.
The rate and temperature of oil evaporation is very important in real life applications. As for the accuracy of ASTM D-5800, for example - I actually have no idea.
See this is my point...
Heres Amsoils data...
Heres Terrys data from this link...
Volatility D5800/SAVLAB VOL %
ATM12.06
GC 11.28
M1 9.77
RL 6.85
And then a NOACK type test from this link...
Chevron--25% loss
Havoline--28% loss
Citgo Supergard--29% loss
Castrol Syntec--15% loss
M-1 Super-Syn=16% loss
Royal Purple=17% loss
Napa Synthetic=13% loss
The above were SL 10w-30's
Amsoil 10w-30 syn "AMO-PAO type"--11% loss
GC 0w-30--16% loss
Kendall 5w-40 synthetic--23% loss
Mobil Long Life 0w-30 "Saab"--15% loss
Mobil 0w-30 Formula Extreme Trisynthetic--21%loss
Mobil 0w-40 Supersyn---16% loss
Fina ELF 0w-30 Synthetic--17% loss
Torco 5w-30 Synthetic--28% loss
Schaffer 10w-30 blend---25% loss
Synergyn 3w-30---21% loss
BMW HP Synthetic---15% loss
Motul 10w-40 E-Tech 100 Syn.--21% loss
Saab 5w-30 Syn Blend--24% loss
Torco 5w-20 Synthetic--26% loss
Synergyn 0w-20 Synthetic--14% loss
Auto RX--20% loss
Valvoline Synpower Oil Treat.--31% loss
Valvoline Maxlife Oil Treat.--29% loss
Schaeffer 132 Moly EP Treat.--20% loss
I believe the above test was done in the 200* area.
Id like to make an informed dicision based on the volatility of a particular oil...it does appear that Amsoil is the leader, but yet conflicts with newer data provided by Terry...or maybe Im just reading his data the wrong way???
Heres Terrys data from this link...
Volatility D5800/SAVLAB VOL %
ATM12.06
GC 11.28
M1 9.77
RL 6.85
And then a NOACK type test from this link...
Chevron--25% loss
Havoline--28% loss
Citgo Supergard--29% loss
Castrol Syntec--15% loss
M-1 Super-Syn=16% loss
Royal Purple=17% loss
Napa Synthetic=13% loss
The above were SL 10w-30's
Amsoil 10w-30 syn "AMO-PAO type"--11% loss
GC 0w-30--16% loss
Kendall 5w-40 synthetic--23% loss
Mobil Long Life 0w-30 "Saab"--15% loss
Mobil 0w-30 Formula Extreme Trisynthetic--21%loss
Mobil 0w-40 Supersyn---16% loss
Fina ELF 0w-30 Synthetic--17% loss
Torco 5w-30 Synthetic--28% loss
Schaffer 10w-30 blend---25% loss
Synergyn 3w-30---21% loss
BMW HP Synthetic---15% loss
Motul 10w-40 E-Tech 100 Syn.--21% loss
Saab 5w-30 Syn Blend--24% loss
Torco 5w-20 Synthetic--26% loss
Synergyn 0w-20 Synthetic--14% loss
Auto RX--20% loss
Valvoline Synpower Oil Treat.--31% loss
Valvoline Maxlife Oil Treat.--29% loss
Schaeffer 132 Moly EP Treat.--20% loss
I believe the above test was done in the 200* area.
Id like to make an informed dicision based on the volatility of a particular oil...it does appear that Amsoil is the leader, but yet conflicts with newer data provided by Terry...or maybe Im just reading his data the wrong way???
You are comparing apples to oranges. TGA is not the NOACK methodology. I'm still not sure what to make of Terry's data.
Keep up the digging, though.
Yeah...thats my point...I cant really find much more.
I figured TGA and NOACK were different, but the only difference I saw was the temperature at which its tested 200*(which is around normal opperating temps) and the NOACK being around 400*(?)
Im really leaning towards the Amsoil, Id just like to find more current NOACK results, post Katrina would be great...but I aint holding my breath.
Guys, I study lots of proprietary lubricant data in the course of my business. The values listed in the bar graph seem very low for all oils tested that I am familiar with. Amsoil has, since its inception been a low volatility oil by design. i.e. they need the oil to be stable and no cook off over longer drains.
Both "TGA and NOACK" tests are Thermal Gravimetric Analysis tests. NOACK is designed to measuring the volatility stability of the oil. TGA measure distillation levels at different temps and times.
The key methods are ramp up time and temp, max temps, and time at max temp.
Keep in mind D5800/NOACK is method of measuring volatility stabililty on the BENCH. ILSAC used to require that 22% max loss limit for pass/fail at 250C for one hour.
The oil is heated to 250C and held at that temp for one hour, air is then introduced into the chamber and maintained at a constant flow rate under slight vaccum. After the hour is expired the amount of oil remaining in the chamber is weighed,and compared to the original weight of the oil.
The source of the data shared here was Institute of Materials. Their own in house lab is Savant labs and the SAVLAB volume test is based on their protocal. They perform a very respected broad based bench testing protocal for blinded off the shelf motor oils and publish the results. Last time I priced the book it was $10,000 for a regions oil. Asian, US, and Europe are available. So my data was independent of any in house testing that could be construed as biased.
The reason the values change is that formulations change, rapidly!
For instance in 2000 data for ATM 10w30 was 7.06%.
2004 showed ATM 10w30 at 12.06%
Most AFFORDABLE lubricants will test in the 12-15% range by independent lab.
Like any measure of a formulation there are tradeoffs. Synthetics may be extremely resistant to volatility (burn off = adding oil) but oxidation resistance is poor. Both contribute to thickening oil and throwing add balance out of whack.
Use oil analysis and logging top ups as a accurte way for you to "in-house" test your chosen brand. Don't use one bench test measure to guide your oil purchase decision.
The 2005 Amsoil D5800 tests above show me excellent volatility stability that engine sequence testing is causing formulators to ensure.
The poorest reading above is a good one in a well maintained car. Some of the relatively good results are not consistant with UOA we see daily!
lobo11's test was obviously a bit harder on motor oil but the relative measure of the values is a good one from what I can tell on overview.
Additives like Auto-RX will not do as well alone as they do in the host oil at design treat levels. It is designed to be a cleaner not a motor oil!
Terry
What the h*** is NOACK abbreviated for anyway? Is that anything like the AWACS spy plane?
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