Cryo treatment and barrier coatings? (thermal etc)

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So since i'm a guy who drives too much and expects to continue driving too much once I resume work i'm always trying to figure out ways to minimize "total lifetime cost" of my vehicle needs mostly fuel and maintenance.

Two technologies that i've read about, seen occasional periodic articles about, but do NOT seem mentioned very much at all are cryogenic treatment and the technology of various metal coatings, most commonly known are probably Thermal Barrier Coatings sometimes put on piston tops, but there are other coatings - dry film lubrication, anti corrosion, water shedding, oil shedding (like on a crankshaft weight where it doesn't need it), etc.

I know of them - but I am no expert in any of them. I'm trying to find someone who is, or can direct me to definitive resources (ie - not the marketing/propaganda page of the guys selling it :^) talking about how effective they are, maybe tests and comparisons "with and without". What parts you can treat, could treat, shouldn't treat. Whats worth the money, what isnt.


For instance i've heard of gears gaining about 10% strength with cryo treatment but more importantling lasting 3-5x as long. I've HEARD that, but would like documentation, objective tests, etc.

I'm curious whether the same could be done to brake rotors or brake pads. Or if anything might be applied to a cylinder wall to extend lifespan between needing rebuild.
 
I'm sure it matters, but on a TCO basis I'm willing to guess it's far from ever paying for itself--on a TCO basis it's better to buy a plain jane car, and replace a motor that is worn out after 250k with a $400 100kmile example than it would ever be to rebuilt said 250k engine, cryo-treated components or not. Extend that to every other part of the drivetrain.

Now, to skip out on TCO and to just look at performance and longevity: again, IMO it won't matter on brake components, not in the rust belt. Salt will take 'em out if they are somehow long life items.
 
I've looked at cryo brake rotors from a racing perspective and they certainly last longer than non-cryo rotors but still have a hard time making financial sense. The guys I know that have run them really like them but it doesn't give a significant enough advantage to be worth it IMO.

I've also tested various coatings and such in engines to look at reduced friction (improved fuel economy) and better heat protection. In each case there were gains to be had but again it was hard to justify the cost even when looking at pricing on a mass-production scale. I can't imagine individual part pricing ever being at the point where it would make financial sense.
 
The OP is asking for a lot of source material worthy of a comprehensive scholarly PhD paper, to document the present state of the art in coatings for automotive use.

My interest is in cryotreating. I've looked at lots of internet information, but I've also read some information written in peer-reviewed technical publications. The upshot of cryotreating is that it is useful in quench-and-tempered product that is low weight, but expensive to machine, such as broaches, cutting tools, and other tool material. I personally (and professionally) don't see how it enhances the properties of other materials, such as cast iron brake rotors, cast iron and steel crankshafts, or musicians cymbals. The metallurgy just doesn't support it.

Even with its proven effectiveness on quench-and-tempered steel, I don't see its wholesale application on these products, likely because of the cost for this added step, and logistics of incorporating it properly in the heat treat schedule.
 
One of the major performance magazines recently conducted a test of barrier coatings in an incremented test on a performance LS engine in an attempt to quantify their benefits. From what I remember the test did reveal an improvement in power but most if not all of the gains were within of very near the repeatability of the dyno accuracy. The gains were very modest. It was hypothesized that perhaps in a higher specific output engine the gains might have been greater. Also all of the oil shedding coatings provided no measurable gains below roughly 5,000 RPM. As for cryo treatment of parts I have limited personal experience in an automotive setting. I did run 2 sets of identical rotors and pads both purchased at the same time on my 2002 Tacoma. One set was treated the other set was not. The non treated brake pads were worn to the service limit at 52,000 miles the rotors were still serviceable with 0.045" left above minimum machine thickness after 52,000 miles. When the truck got totaled the cryogenic treated pads and rotors had 75,000 miles on them with ~70% of their original material remaining the rotors also showed a reduction in wear and has only worn 0.010" from the new rotor thickness. Also for this truck I had a rear ring and pinion treated in an effort to prevent gear failure which it did not. However a local to me at the time pulling team had an unlimited pulling truck with 3 Rolls Royce Merlin engines on it and they swore up and down that cryogenic treatment of critical high failure items had shown significant improvements in durability and wear resistance. They specifically treated pistons, rods, crankshaft, camshaft and followers and the blower gear train with reported great success.
 
My impression of racing teams and drivers is that they rely more on puffery than fact.

If cryotreatment is so wonderful, why haven't automakers incorporated it into their production?
 
Originally Posted By: Kestas
My impression of racing teams and drivers is that they rely more on puffery than fact.

If cryotreatment is so wonderful, why haven't automakers incorporated it into their production?


True for a lot of racing teams and drivers but there are quite a few that rely on knowledge and science.

Automakers haven't incorporated them into production because the benefit it not significant enough to out weight the costs. As I mentioned earlier I did some work with special coatings to improve fuel economy through reduced friction. Could I show a benefit that was statistically significant, yes. Could I show a large enough benefit that would convince my Chief Engineer to include in on a production product and raise cost, no. Would I use the same coatings on my race car to improve performance, in a heartbeat if legal.

Thinking of the conversations on this board that point to 20wt oils getting no better fuel economy in the real world over 30wt oils. The OEMs still use them because they can show an improvement in testing. Since oils are roughly the same cost there is no reason not to see the benefit. Now if we are talking about adding cost to see a small benefit, no way.
 
Yeah - you're right. Motorsports, and sports in general will spend vast sums of money on a product if they perceive a fractional gain.

I still don't see the metallurgy of cryotreated rotors and how they are improved for wear. I am more than intimately familiar with cast iron. Someone please explain it to me. There must be a fundamental difference between treated and untreated rotor cast iron that can be explained scientifically, or it is not true.

And don't use terms like "it aligns the molecules," since these are hollow terms that mean absolutely nothing to the person who understands materials.
 
Originally Posted By: Kestas
Yeah - you're right. Motorsports, and sports in general will spend vast sums of money on a product if they perceive a fractional gain.

I still don't see the metallurgy of cryotreated rotors and how they are improved for wear. I am more than intimately familiar with cast iron. Someone please explain it to me. There must be a fundamental difference between treated and untreated rotor cast iron that can be explained scientifically, or it is not true.

And don't use terms like "it aligns the molecules," since these are hollow terms that mean absolutely nothing to the person who understands materials.


As a Mechanical Engineer myself I also cannot find a reason why it should improve the wear characteristics of cast iron, however in my own (less than engineering grade or control level) personal experience it did on my brake components listed above. However I had no way of knowing that the rotors were from the same lot,nor the brake pads and the testing was conducted over years with tons of variables. So I wouldn't be willing to call the results statistically significant due to all the unknowns and variables outside of my control. However one should be able to test and quantify it if you had access to a brake dyno to run the testing on.
 
To the OP: What part(s) of your car are failing to give good service life and costing you time and money?

If I lived in the rust belt I would buy a solid 10 year old economy car from a dry state and run it until it dissolves to achieve the lowest TCO.
 
For cryo, it's supposed to change the grain structure the same way tempering and quenching changes the grain structure. The latter proveably changes things like hardness or wearability so it makes sense the former would too - both are temperature extreme exposures afterall.

I'm aware alot of these things probably depend on "what cost can you do it for". I'm wondering whether DIY options are feasible - the way kids already play with liquid nitrogen cooling of computer chips and such. I doubt at commercial costs it's worth it right now. Thus i'd just as soon find something along the lines of educational texts they might give to college metallurgists - which are hopefully not full of puffery and [censored].

In terms of good service life if I can cryo treat a brake rotor for less than the cost of a second brake rotor, and have it last twice as long, it just paid for itself. If talk of 3-5x the service life for certain components is true (or even if not) it mostly comes down to a cost/ROI question. Some PITA jobs like clutches i'd love to last twice as long when I drive cars long enough to have to do more than one change in it's life.

I don't expect mainstream car companies to care about super long life when cars last 200k already anyways, and everyone wants to change things out for the newest stylish whatever in 8 years anyways. I'm the guy who'd just as soon buy one pickup that I plan to still drive in 40 years when i'm 80 if I could.

Finally part of this is just curiosity. I'm wondering if there's someone whose pushing the limits, or experimenting with it on everything, and finding out rules of thumb like what % stronger or longer lasting or whatever something is with cryo. Or how much knock survival TBC coatings on piston tops gives in high performance. Or if there's parts that shouldn't be cryoed for instance. I can't believe i'm the only curious person.
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Cryo treatment on cast iron brake rotors makes no sense to me, either. I view cryotreatment as a way of saving martensitic parts that have been improperly quenched. If the heat treat is done properly, there should be no retained austenite in the microstructure. On brake rotors, it makes no sense to even worry about getting proper quench rates during normal operation. Occasional excursions to red heat in emergency braking events would leave intermediate microstructures such as bainite and retained austenite, because air cooling is not fast enough to lock in martensite. Also varying heat soaks after the car is stopped would probably leave the rotors in the annealed condition. GM started using a special nitriding heat treatment on their brake rotors a few years ago to improve corrosion resistance. Maybe that will catch on.
 
Appears to have improved benefits over "regular" shotpeening. My guess is that it is more uniform. It has smaller media which may have better effect in reducing surface stress. If Mike Kojima says it's good you can take it to the bank IMHO.
 
Irv Gordon’s 3 million mile Volvo P1800 had had three engine rebuilds. The third engine rebuild has gone over 2 million miles. Why did the third rebuild last so much longer than the first two? The answer is residual stress relief. The cast blocks get residual stresses imparted from the cooling process which propagate to the surface and are “relieved” with use.

In the old 50’s and 60’s Nascar days the engine builders used to look for seasoned blocks. These were blocks that had been used for 50,000 miles. They claimed the seasoned blocks lasted longer and made more power. I know they were quite serious because they paid a pretty penny to get these, often purchasing the entire car or truck to get the engine block. A seasoned block is a block that has been stress relieved. Modern Nascar teams use a vibration table and/or cryogenic treating to accomplish the same task on blocks and heads. No secret here, you can see the equipment in their shops.

Cryogenic treating works by relieving casting stresses, which causes parts to keep their shape after machining, AND imparts changes within the grain and grain boundaries that improves abrasion and wear resistance. There is quite a bit of PhD level information on the subject if you Google it and are able to understand it. The process is completely different than the changes we see in steel/iron grain structures from heat treating and do not show up with a Rockwell hardness test. Cryogenic treating improves the toughness of many iron/steels but does not change the hardness. The same is true for aluminum. The fact that cryogenic treating is used for helicopter and turbine parts (Google it yourself!) should be proof enough that the benefits are real. Whether the cost/benefit is worth it to you is the question.

So academics, racers, and hard core aerospace engineering have all proven that cryogenics can improve material properties, but what is that worth to you? Well, there are no billion dollar government funded double blind studies showing that your hot rodded Chevy 454 will last twice as long with cryogenically treated parts. You just have magazine articles (always a suspect source), and word of mouth from people who have tried it. For me, I treat every engine block cryogenically. It costs $200 and I am gambling that I get twice the lifespan for that $200. Depending on the job, I am highly tempted to get cylinder heads treated as “word on the street” is that they don’t warp after cyro treatment. Every Alfa Romeo owner needs to try this and report back to me after 50,000 miles.

As far as cryogenically treated brakes go…. Having the brakes start to pulsate during a race or track day is a common problem with street and vintage cars I work on. For every car I have installed cryogenically treated rotors or drums, the problem has disappeared, except for my 2007 Ford Mustang GT which needed larger rotors up front to get rid of the problem. I have cured five cars with the chronic pulsating brake problem by using cryogenically treated rotors or drums. Whether cryogenic treating will work for the OP’s truck and driving conditions, it is his unique test he needs to perform. I have heard enough people with first hand experience tell me cryogenically treated rotors solved their issues to be sold on the process. Sometimes you have to get off the fence and make decision, and I think there is enough info out there to make that decision in favor of cryogenically treated rotors.

So, enough about cryogenic treatment, what about coatings? Well I resisted coatings for a long time, but I am going to breakdown on my next job and coat lots of stuff. Here is why:

1. Thermally coating the exhaust valve face reduces its temperature several hundred degrees. I only know this because David Vizard told me so. I figure David Vizard knows his stuff and knocking a few hundred degrees off the valve temperature has to be a good thing for longevity.
2. Most manufacturers are shipping cars and motorcycles with anti-friction coatings on the pistons. So that must work pretty good and be cost effective.
3. KTM and Honda both ship engines with DTC Diamond coating, or the equivalent, on the valve follower/cam interface. So that must work and be cost effective.
4. Porsche and Subaru both use thermal barrier coatings on their exhaust ports in their turbo race cars. I know because I have seen them. So that must be good stuff. Porsche even uses it on at least one of their 911 street cars, so it must be somewhat cost effective.
5. A few cars are being shipped with coated main/rod bearings, so I figure that those coatings must actually do something good or they wouldn’t be paying for it.
6. You don’t need a degree in thermal engineering to figure out that coating the exhaust headers reduces underhood temperatures by about 30-50 degrees. That has to be a good thing with all the electronics they put in there these days. $400 well spent in opinion. At least it is well spent here in Southern California. Some Canadians may feel they need that extra heat.
7. The jury is out when thermal coating piston tops and cylinder heads. Some say it works great , others say you need to the heat to dissipate as much as possible. Seems like a gamble to me. What I would like to see is a coating that prevented carbon build up in the cylinder. I’ll be some OEM’s would pay for that too.
8. The thermal dissipating coatings work well. If you have an air cooled cylinder head and you get it coated with that special black thermal paint stuff, your metal temps under the spark plug are going down around 15 degrees. I know because I tried it and scientifically measured it myself. More than once. That’s real hardcore science for you right there.

So there you have it. What has pushed me over the edge with thermal coatings is that I have seen the manufacturers start to pick them up. I figure if they are doing it, then the benefits are real enough for me.
 
You brought up a good point about DLC coatings on KTM and Mazda engines.

I have heard that VW guys buy DLC cam followers to extend the life of the PD diesel engines. I also read about VW reducing the number of cam failures in GDI engines by using DLC on the HPFP cam follower.

That sounds like a solution to a badly designed engine, but if an engine is built so well that it goes 250,000 miles without issue, I don't see a benefit from such coatings.

I do find piston skirt coatings interesting. They have become very common over the last 15 years. The other thing I find interesting is that many basic rebuild kits have coated piston skirts, even in engines that never had coated piston skirts.
 
Originally Posted By: carock
1. Thermally coating the exhaust valve face reduces its temperature several hundred degrees. I only know this because David Vizard told me so. I figure David Vizard knows his stuff and knocking a few hundred degrees off the valve temperature has to be a good thing for longevity.



I'd think twice about thermally coating the exhaust valve face. That will turn it into a hotspot in the combustion chamber and make the engine more susceptible to detonation or preignition. If you want to lower the valve face temperature, put beryllium copper valve seats in the cylinder head.
 
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