Cryo Spark Plugs & Brake Pads

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15,201
Location
Santa Barbara, CA
only things i would get cryo'd are crankshafts, conrods, pistons, brake rotors and transmission gears. anything else is a little overkill. completely unneeded for spark plugs and brake pads.
 

Kestas

Staff member
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13,940
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The Motor City
No, I see no effect on castings. Cryo-heat-treatment is only effective on quench-and-tempered product, such as hardened steel. I read through the link - pure bunk.
 
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537
Location
California
Really? I know I have used cryo brake rotors to ggod effect for vintage race cars. In back to back tsting a cryo rotor will almost double the life of a rotor.
 

Kestas

Staff member
Messages
13,940
Location
The Motor City
I see no basis for cryotreating to affect the material properties of grey cast iron. Aligns the molecules??... c'mon... gimme a break! That's not the vernacular a metallurgist would use. The info from that link would lead someone to believe that metal in car parts can be amorphous!!
 
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1,463
Location
CA
This wording sound any better? http://www.frozenrotors.com/frozen101.php
quote:
Deep cryogenic processing permanently refines the grain structure of metals at the atomic level. Carbon particles precipitate as carbides into a lattice structure and fill in the microscopic voids. This creates metallurgically improved and stabilized rotors that have a denser, smoother surface. As a result, you reduce heat and wear on brake rotors and pads.
Don't cyro treatments increase the wear resistance of a metal?
 
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3,558
Location
SE Pa
Cryotreating should ultimately "relax" the structure of some metals and the assemblies it composes, according to its proponents. Cryotreating and its effects are not bunk, as some are claiming. It is a legitimate technology, with measurable results. But theory and reality in the field are two different things. Its seemingly exotic technology is a savvy method to separate the unwary from his money. It is now often being hapazardly promoted and used by greedy vendors on things and in ways where it offers absolutely no practical benefit. Cryotreating is now done extensively in audio circles to more exotic NOS vacuum tubes, with audible sonic consequences (to my ears adversely so). A vacuum tube possesses extremely tight manufacturing tolerances and operating specifications that respond to the treatment. But I consider it a waste of money in this example based on the result, and not on the lack of a result. But I doubt cryotreating would make any difference for the average driver in components with operating tolerances as large as those found in mainstream brake components and spark plugs. I imagine in a bona fide race car, where every split-second counts, it might find some utility in some engine components. But for Joe Blow and his '99 Taurus, it is a complete waste of money.
 
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4,478
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Southern California
I wonder why it's only the Russians, Chinese, and a few former Soviet satellite countries who continue to invest in vacuum tube production and distribution. (the weird science of fire bottles and their even-ordered harmonic distortion euphonics... [freaknout] ) As for NOS (new old stock) tubes from the likes of Western Electric, Mullard, et al, I really wonder how much of this stuff may actually be months old - not decades old - and coming in from a Peoples Republic Army factory on the outskirts of Shanghai in beautifully counterfeited boxes mimicking the original brand versions to be sold stateside for fifty, seventy-five, or even one-hundred-fifty bucks a pop to the cash-flush and naive. [Wink] [ September 13, 2006, 11:26 AM: Message edited by: Ray H ]
 
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3,558
Location
SE Pa
quote:
Originally posted by Ray H: I wonder why it's only the Russians, Chinese, and a few former Soviet satellite countries who continue to invest in vacuum tube production and distribution. (the weird science of fire bottles and their even-ordered harmonic distortion euphonics... [freaknout] )
Detour begins: Musicians and the music industry are the biggest reason for continued production. That and other applications where a vacuum tube outperforms a semiconductor (yes, there are some). The high end of audio is only a small sliver of demand. The US military still maintains some stocks ("JAN tubes"), and has released huge older stockpiles back into the market over the past 25 years. It is hardly weird science. Thermonic emission and vacuum tube production involves extremely mature and sophisticated technologies. The US military continues to invest in vacuum tube technologies, albeit in ways that bear little resemblance to the tubes in Dad's '58 Philco. Many of the old Eastern bloc producers acquired old equipment from the Western European tube giants as they got out of the tube business. Some product sounds close to the old greats from the '50s and '60s, but with poorer quality control. The big Russian makers are using more modern Soviet military equipment, and turn out high-quality and rugged, if uninspiring sounding, product. I believe that tubes deliver better audio performance than transistors. Odd order harmonics are not exactly delightful. It's become an age-old debate, so there will be others who disagree. But as I'm a bit of a dinosaur, I also prefer NOS over the new production bottles. It is like collecting fine wines to some. Love those old Holland Amperexes. Nevertheless, I would never place one of these rare endangered species into a cryo freezer, as some of the vendors are now doing. Detour over.
 
Messages
3,558
Location
SE Pa
quote:
Originally posted by Ray H: I wonder why it's only the Russians, Chinese, and a few former Soviet satellite countries who continue to invest in vacuum tube production and distribution. (the weird science of fire bottles and their even-ordered harmonic distortion euphonics... [freaknout] ) As for NOS (new old stock) tubes from the likes of Western Electric, Mullard, et al, I really wonder how much of this stuff may actually be months old - not decades old - and coming in from a Peoples Republic Army factory on the outskirts of Shanghai in beautifully counterfeited boxes mimicking the original brand versions to be sold stateside for fifty, seventy-five, or even one-hundred-fifty bucks a pop to the cash-flush and naive. [Wink]
Ah, you edited. Trust me, those who do this for a living and/or are serious hobbyists can sniff out a counterfeit in a heartbeat. There's things in an older tube that cannot be reasonably duplicated by a counterfeiter. It's generally the overeager newbies and the uneducated idiots that get taken by these thieves. The good NOS stuff is getting harder and harder to find. So like the GC cult around here, those who are serious about it build up large personal stashes. But unlike motor oil, these things as a depleting supply appreciate in value. I've got tubes I paid $15 for seven years ago that are now worth well over $150. Multiply that by a few dozen or a hundred, and it can be a better investment than many securities.
 
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87
Location
Portland, OR
I remember reading about the capture of a MIG fighter aircraft years ago, and the amazement that its avionics were vacuum tube. Then the reason dawned. I participated in several atmospheric nuclear test series and saw the effects of EMP, a phenomenon that for example shut down power grids in Hawaii with a high altitude detonation at Johnson Island. Semiconductor electronics simply get fried with these voltage pulses, whereas vacuum tube electronics will survive and become functional again after a brief hiatus. It is estimated that three high altitude enhanced nuclear detonations spaced across the US would effectively shut the country down - no cars, computers, etc. would work and they would not recover. That is why our emergency government facilities are buried deep inside mountains.
 
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1,203
Location
Oregon
I had a barrel cryo treated on a rifle in the mid 90s. It was supposed to help out accuracy thru better barrel harmonics. Nothing in accuracy changed other than my wallet was lighter. [Bang Head]
 
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3,558
Location
SE Pa
quote:
Originally posted by ITSMR2U: I remember reading about the capture of a MIG fighter aircraft years ago, and the amazement that its avionics were vacuum tube. Then the reason dawned. I participated in several atmospheric nuclear test series and saw the effects of EMP . . .
Correct. That is one situation where vacuum tubes are superior to their less robust semiconductor cousins. It had nothing to do with Soviet technical "inferiority". They had plenty of transistors, too. But that is why tubes still are sometimes found in military applications. The prime reason that vacuum tubes are currently generally defunct are their relatively enormous size compared to a semiconductor. However, there is recent military research in manufacturing nano sized tubes. Field longevity is actually comparable when used to specification. Good small signal tubes can have MTBF rates of several tens of thousands of hours, far more than the capacitors and other passives around them. Much of the bad rap on tubes from the "TV repair" era was due to overaggressive circuit topologies using tubes beyind their design specifications. Tubes have numerous operational advantages over semiconductors. Unfortunately, size, heat and power draw were not among them. As you can tell, I like tubes.
 
Messages
3,558
Location
SE Pa
quote:
Originally posted by Hirev: I had a barrel cryo treated on a rifle in the mid 90s. It was supposed to help out accuracy thru better barrel harmonics. Nothing in accuracy changed other than my wallet was lighter. [Bang Head]
Amazing what people will do to fleece others. Next time offer to pay a dollar in cryo treated nickles.
 

Kestas

Staff member
Messages
13,940
Location
The Motor City
Actually, cryotreating a rifle barrel would make a better product. But this has to be done before final machining. That's why you didn't notice any difference in accuracy. gtx510, that quote is a word soup of junk metallurgy. It could have talked about muffler bearings and blinker fluid, and would have left the same impression on me. Cryotreating does not precipitate carbides from the metal matrix. If anything it would suppress it. Carbides grow during heating of a quenched high-carbon steel, not during cooling. I am intimately familiar with cast iron rotors. The metal is essentially made of pure flakes of graphite in a ferritic matrix. You're not going to get carbides from the graphite in the cast iron. The carbon distribution just wouldn't allow it. I just don't see how cryotreating could benefit grey cast iron.
 
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7,430
Location
beaver land EH?
Hi Volvohead- Wanna talk vacuum toobs? I'm an ultra-fi phile with DC'ed 2A3 SE amps that I've been listening to for the past 8 yrs, and still loving it every single day. I also do a bit of AM tabletop radio restoration, re-alignment and repair.
 
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