Credit is where it is due: Nokian Hakkapeliitta R2 SUV

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edyvw

edyvw

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Colorado Springs, CO
So, most of you know that I am definiately not fan of these tires in dry, wet, or comfort wise. I still think they are mediocre at best, EXCEPT during that "bombgenesis" that we had yesterday.
I still have to shovel some 6ft snow drift part of my drive way, but other part of driveway is not as bad as VW Tiguan was going in and out of garage to rescue people in neighborhood and local roads.
I drove yesterday from work and daycare home around noon in Sienna (has Michelin Latitude Xi2). It was already a mess, and people were getting nowhere due to SPECIFICALLY tires. Numerous pick up's, Subaru's (drivers of these cars are absolute nemesis on the road. One just cannot explain them laws of physics). After navigating between struggling cars to get my kid home (it was slush in the morning which by noon turned into ice, while snow was pounding and wind was already some 40-50mph), which took 1 1/2 hours instead of normal 15 minutes, I parked Sienna somehow as blizzard was at that point so strong that I could not see backing up into garage.
After some time, on neighborhood Facebook page there were posts that people got stuck in their cars (Facebook yesterday, as it happens in situations like this, was spotty at best). So several of us (mostly people with JEEP's that had proper A/T tires, though one of my friends managed to break axle), guy in Audi Q7 and I in Tiguan, went around to check people. Those Nokian felt finally like they are at home. 2ft drift? No problems. Snow up to VW sign on my Tiguan? No problems. Around 8pm, there was a call that pregnant lady was stranded for 6hrs and she could not reach search and rescue. Guy in a JEEP and I went to pick her up, and stumbled in closed road on a police that managed to call snow cat to get her. Winds were anywhere between 60 and 90mph (at the airport few miles away they measured 97mph). I had to put ski suit on and wear ski mask and googles to see anything.
So overall, absolutely no issues with NOKIAN Hakka R2 SUV through drifts, avoiding road through grass covered with bunch of snow, 2 inches of ice on the road (that is where JEEP's with A/T tires had some serious issues).
I must say, before things got really bad, Michelin Latitude Xi2 x-ice did really good too. But, going through that icy slush and later driving Nokian, I could notice that Nokian's are more confident in slush and allow much more speed. However, could not try Michelin's last night as Sienna does not have clearance for that, plus VW's AWD is much better than one on Toyota and generally short wheelbase on Tiguan is much easier to maneuver between numerous cars that were stranded.
 
Originally Posted by c502cid
Was in the same mess coming in from Limon yesterday minutes before they closed CO 86. Took 3 hours to get to Kiowa.

Yeah, more to the East the worse it was. I am on Northeast side of Co. Springs, close to the Black Forest, and it was much worse here than city itself.
I think all cars that got stranded got into situation like that because of tires, and tires alone. 95% of cars that were and are still stranded have AWD.
 
I'm a tire junkie so I get it and fully agree, but many who got stranded were also out of action because of visibility. You put a wheel off the side of the road and you were done. I was following a plow from Kiowa to Elizabeth and couldn't see the strobes on it and I was pretty close behind it, maybe 30 yards behind. I have dedicated studded snows on separate wheels for six trucks/cars here, I believe in winter traction, but I was close to being one of those stranded yesterday, good tires or not, because you just couldn't see.
 
Good on edyvw for taking a risk to help a pregnant lady in need!

I, too, have mixed feelings about my R2 SUVs...maybe next time we get a really bad storm I will take my FXT up my long drive and around my hilly street before the plow comes to see if I have the same experience as edyvw in drifts.
I hate making packed down tire tracks on my driveway before I snowblow, though...

Seems like the bomb is not going to hit in New England, can't say I'm sad about that...probably not going to ski this weekend anyway due to a visitor as well as high winds on Saturday. I did go out for 1.5 hours before work yesterday and the conditions were beautiful for New England, bump runs were actually snowy for once...
 
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The roads glazed over real quickly up here (Broomfield) and the wind was unreal. It blew my gas grill from one side of the deck to the other (16') in a second. It started early in the morning with a real hard rain that turned into a heavy snow and frooze everything in minutes. My son drove from Lafayette to Broomfield (less than 10 miles) and it took him and hour and a half. He has a Golf R with new Nokians and had no problems. He does now have a hate for performance cars (Mustangs, BMW's, etc. that insist upon driving with their summer only tires year round. He said that every car that was causing problems (lost traction on the slightest grade, blown off the road due to no traction, etc) were all performance cars and get this.....Jeep Wranglers with over size tires. Short wheelbase jeeps are worth squat on iced over roads. It was so bad that every window on my house was coated with an inch of ice as the wind seemed to come from every direction at once. The sun is out and it seems to be melting fast!!
 
Originally Posted by edyvw
... Subaru's (drivers of these cars are absolute nemesis on the road. One just cannot explain them laws of physics).



Why the hate for Subaru ... ?

SOME owners of ALL BRANDS of all wheel drive cars and SUV's have no clue how to drive, nor do they understand the importance of winter tires for extreme winter conditions.

And, surprisingly ( as a Subaru driver ), yes, I do understand the laws of physics ... !

Cheers.
 
Originally Posted by geeman789
Originally Posted by edyvw
... Subaru's (drivers of these cars are absolute nemesis on the road. One just cannot explain them laws of physics).



Why the hate for Subaru ... ?

SOME owners of ALL BRANDS of all wheel drive cars and SUV's have no clue how to drive, nor do they understand the importance of winter tires for extreme winter conditions.

And, surprisingly ( as a Subaru driver ), yes, I do understand the laws of physics ... !

Cheers.


I have to agree with you. The abundance of AWD equipped vehicles ( with good tires or not) has instilled a level of false security for a lot of drivers. While they may have increased traction they do not stop any faster than a non AWD car. The sad truth is that few drivers know how to use ABS systems which most cars now have. As soon as then begin to pulsate and buzz they panic and take their foot off the brake and then lose a surprising amount or braking and steering control the systems provide. My wife is such a person and no matter how many times I've told her to hold the brakes and steer where she needs to go, she's reluctant to do so. (She's from the generation taught to pump brakes and steer while pumping).
 
Originally Posted by geeman789
Originally Posted by edyvw
... Subaru's (drivers of these cars are absolute nemesis on the road. One just cannot explain them laws of physics).



Why the hate for Subaru ... ?

SOME owners of ALL BRANDS of all wheel drive cars and SUV's have no clue how to drive, nor do they understand the importance of winter tires for extreme winter conditions.

And, surprisingly ( as a Subaru driver ), yes, I do understand the laws of physics ... !

Cheers.















It is amazing behavior. I had guy in Impreza yesterday in front of me on hilly road struggling going uphill. So I let him bit in front so that he does not lose momentum. Once he gained momentum I passed him (two lane road) with my Sienna. The guy went nuts. He was trying so hard to catch up with me that he spun sideways on the road (I am not sure what happened, and actually could not care less as he blocked everyone behind him).
Every time we have snow it is Subbie drivers that are first in the ditch. Local Subaru dealership purposely advertise Subaru as "best car when worst weather comes" (something along those lines). Yet, last night one could see Subaru only in the ditch.
But there were multiple cars stuck. Most AWD as I said, Grand Cherokee's, Durango's, etc.
 
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Originally Posted by GaryMX5
The roads glazed over real quickly up here (Broomfield) and the wind was unreal. It blew my gas grill from one side of the deck to the other (16') in a second. It started early in the morning with a real hard rain that turned into a heavy snow and frooze everything in minutes. My son drove from Lafayette to Broomfield (less than 10 miles) and it took him and hour and a half. He has a Golf R with new Nokians and had no problems. He does now have a hate for performance cars (Mustangs, BMW's, etc. that insist upon driving with their summer only tires year round. He said that every car that was causing problems (lost traction on the slightest grade, blown off the road due to no traction, etc) were all performance cars and get this.....Jeep Wranglers with over size tires. Short wheelbase jeeps are worth squat on iced over roads. It was so bad that every window on my house was coated with an inch of ice as the wind seemed to come from every direction at once. The sun is out and it seems to be melting fast!!

Those go into special category of stupid.
 
Jeep Wranglers are actually pretty bad in the snow. The part time 4x4 system doesn't allow all 4 wheels to turn at different speeds, so they can get a bit sketchy when trying to turn. The short wheel base never helps, and the older TJ and YJ 4.0L jeeps were tail heavy. Mud tires make them completely worthless on the road in snow.

I've had a bunch of Jeeps over the years (with snow tires, too) and I much prefer the Subaru over any of them for driving on the road in the snow. Even with the awful hankook i-pike snow tires.

However, my 33'' mud tires dropped to 10PSI will do a lot better on a trail with 3' of snow on it than the Subaru can so it's a trade off.
 
Originally Posted by edyvw

It is amazing behavior. I had guy in Impreza yesterday in front of me on hilly road struggling going uphill. So I let him bit in front so that he does not lose momentum. Once he gained momentum I passed him (two lane road) with my Sienna. The guy went nuts. He was trying so hard to catch up with me that he spun sideways on the road (I am not sure what happened, and actually could not care less as he blocked everyone behind him).
Every time we have snow it is Subbie drivers that are first in the ditch. Local Subaru dealership purposely advertise Subaru as "best car when worst weather comes" (something along those lines). Yet, last night one could see Subaru only in the ditch.
But there were multiple cars stuck. Most AWD as I said, Grand Cherokee's, Durango's, etc.



It's possible they did have snow tires on, just bad ones. I have never been more disappointed with a set of tires than these Hankook I-Pike RW11 snow tires. Last winter I got out accelerated by a Nissan Versa on all seasons leaving a stop light ... in my AWD Subaru.

I can't stop, go or turn with these waste of money tires
 
Originally Posted by GaryMX5



I have to agree with you. The abundance of AWD equipped vehicles ( with good tires or not) has instilled a level of false security for a lot of drivers. While they may have increased traction they do not stop any faster than a non AWD car. The sad truth is that few drivers know how to use ABS systems which most cars now have. As soon as then begin to pulsate and buzz they panic and take their foot off the brake and then lose a surprising amount or braking and steering control the systems provide. My wife is such a person and no matter how many times I've told her to hold the brakes and steer where she needs to go, she's reluctant to do so. (She's from the generation taught to pump brakes and steer while pumping...


I tell the non-enthusiasts among us that ALL WHEEL DRIVE simply launches you into trouble faster ... ! Yes, you can almost always get moving with all wheel drive. But, it tends to mask how slippery the road actually is. Then, come time to stop or turn, and you are entirely dependent on your tires. With a FWD or RWD car you are going half as fast or less when you discover this inconvenient truth ... !

Still, I hear the dreaded " I don't need winter tires, I have all wheel drive ... " over and over. Some people just don't get it. We had a family friend say her late model Honda CR-V with all wheel drive was THE WORST car she ever had for winter driving, and she was looking for something better in snow. MAYBE those at the wear bar OE all season tires had something to do with it ... ?
 
Originally Posted by Miller88
Originally Posted by edyvw

It is amazing behavior. I had guy in Impreza yesterday in front of me on hilly road struggling going uphill. So I let him bit in front so that he does not lose momentum. Once he gained momentum I passed him (two lane road) with my Sienna. The guy went nuts. He was trying so hard to catch up with me that he spun sideways on the road (I am not sure what happened, and actually could not care less as he blocked everyone behind him).
Every time we have snow it is Subbie drivers that are first in the ditch. Local Subaru dealership purposely advertise Subaru as "best car when worst weather comes" (something along those lines). Yet, last night one could see Subaru only in the ditch.
But there were multiple cars stuck. Most AWD as I said, Grand Cherokee's, Durango's, etc.



It's possible they did have snow tires on, just bad ones. I have never been more disappointed with a set of tires than these Hankook I-Pike RW11 snow tires. Last winter I got out accelerated by a Nissan Versa on all seasons leaving a stop light ... in my AWD Subaru.

I can't stop, go or turn with these waste of money tires

This guy just had issues even in slushy road before he hit icy slush. Whatever he had, were probably worn out to the bars because he was just struggling so much while many FWD cars there were going still ok.
But, I do agree on Hankook snow tires.
 
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Originally Posted by geeman789



Originally Posted by GaryMX5



I have to agree with you. The abundance of AWD equipped vehicles ( with good tires or not) has instilled a level of false security for a lot of drivers. While they may have increased traction they do not stop any faster than a non AWD car. The sad truth is that few drivers know how to use ABS systems which most cars now have. As soon as then begin to pulsate and buzz they panic and take their foot off the brake and then lose a surprising amount or braking and steering control the systems provide. My wife is such a person and no matter how many times I've told her to hold the brakes and steer where she needs to go, she's reluctant to do so. (She's from the generation taught to pump brakes and steer while pumping...


I tell the non-enthusiasts among us that ALL WHEEL DRIVE simply launches you into trouble faster ... ! Yes, you can almost always get moving with all wheel drive. But, it tends to mask how slippery the road actually is. Then, come time to stop or turn, and you are entirely dependent on your tires. With a FWD or RWD car you are going half as fast or less when you discover this inconvenient truth ... !

Still, I hear the dreaded " I don't need winter tires, I have all wheel drive ... " over and over. Some people just don't get it. We had a family friend say her late model Honda CR-V with all wheel drive was THE WORST car she ever had for winter driving, and she was looking for something better in snow. MAYBE those at the wear bar OE all season tires had something to do with it ... ?


Most cars got stuck while visibility was still OK.
Here is photo on my way from daycare in Sienna around noon. That is when most people abandoned cars. It was strictly due to traction and not visibility. Now, take into consideration that that thing below small snow accumulation is pure ice. Did not stop that Hyundai Sonata, but did mostly AWD cars.
[Linked Image]
 
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Originally Posted by edyvw

It is amazing behavior. I had guy in Impreza yesterday in front of me on hilly road struggling going uphill. So I let him bit in front so that he does not lose momentum. Once he gained momentum I passed him (two lane road) with my Sienna. The guy went nuts. He was trying so hard to catch up with me that he spun sideways on the road (I am not sure what happened, and actually could not care less as he blocked everyone behind him).
Every time we have snow it is Subbie drivers that are first in the ditch. Local Subaru dealership purposely advertise Subaru as "best car when worst weather comes" (something along those lines). Yet, last night one could see Subaru only in the ditch.
But there were multiple cars stuck. Most AWD as I said, Grand Cherokee's, Durango's, etc.

The tires that came on the last two Subies we bought were just awful for winter conditions...I bought my FXT in late spring and there was a minor snowstorm up at our ski condo, I almost slid completely off the road at a small curve near our place that I had driven many, many times in bad conditions. I usually run winter tires, but have gone through some winters with all seasons and also get surprised by late storms after spring tire swaps to all seasons and I never felt like I had so little grip in snow before.
I started poking around online and found complaints about this tire for winter driving everywhere, it was some type of Dueler (there are lots of different models).

I think this is a cynical business decision by Subaru, they tout their AWD system (which is very good) and then put cheap tires with no siping that are probably optimized purely for fuel economy on the vehicles they sell.

There are always cases of those who feel invulnerable in their AWD/4WD vehicles and I think tends to grow stronger the bigger the vehicle is. I had to run to our town dump after a bad mixed winter storm and was shocked to see some guy in a giant GM SUV just tearing down the access road at maybe 50mph...fast on this crummy road even in good conditions. Of course, he lost control and started weaving, then he ended up on the really sketchy shoulder and his monstrous machine was slamming front to back like a seesaw. He finally stopped in a pile of snow just in front of a tree and jumped out with this tremendous look of shock on his face...I slowed down as I drove by and asked if he was OK, he just gave me a blank look and then turned back to stare at the vehicle that had betrayed him. I think he really was 100% convinced that such a big 4X4 SUV just could not have trouble in snow and ice!
Also remember taking a trip over a very wide median into the oncoming lane with a guy in a big 4X4 pickup long ago and him not believing he had lost traction to that degree even though the roads were just ice...he had giant A/T tires that I'm sure were not the best choice for that situation. At least he had spun around so he was facing the proper direction and could just drive off!
 
Originally Posted by krzyss
Some people should watch footage from WWII, winter 1944/45, with Sherman tanks sliding on ice.
Size/mass is your enemy in low friction conditions, with no chance of getting to ground below.

KrzyÅ›

PS I found something newer than WWII ;-)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=au-RkJdwXsA

That is major problem going to ski resorts. Tourists renting biggest possible SUV thinking that will help them. Until they hit downhill.
 
Originally Posted by Virtus_Probi

... The tires that came on the last two Subies we bought were just awful for winter conditions...I bought my FXT in late spring and there was a minor snowstorm up at our ski condo, I almost slid completely off the road at a small curve near our place that I had driven many, many times in bad conditions. I usually run winter tires, but have gone through some winters with all seasons and also get surprised by late storms after spring tire swaps to all seasons and I never felt like I had so little grip in snow before.
I started poking around online and found complaints about this tire for winter driving everywhere, it was some type of Dueler (there are lots of different models).

I think this is a cynical business decision by Subaru, they tout their AWD system (which is very good) and then put cheap tires with no siping that are probably optimized purely for fuel economy on the vehicles they sell ...



On my Subaru Impreza, purchased in August, I got caught out on OE all season tires on ( Bridgestone RE92a ... ) in an early winter (October) storm. Even brand new, they were TERRIBLE ! in snow and ice. I too wondered why Subaru would choose that tire as the OE tire in Canada / Northern USA ???

A bigger question is the whole ALL SEASON, Mud + Snow designation tire makers are still allowed to use. To the average driver, ALL SEASON means exactly that ... adequate in all seasons, including winter. If the tire is NOT ADEQUATE in winter conditions, don't label ( or not be allowed to label by law ... ? ) the tire all season, Mud + Snow.

I have driven on many, many tires over my driving career. I have learned that SOME all season tires are actually pretty good in winter conditions. Others, however, have been TERRIBLE. And that is the problem. How does the average driver know what they are getting? Buyer beware.

I have for the last 20+ years used dedicated premium winter tires on all my vehicles, having learned my tire lessons. I just feel bad for those who blindly trust the car maker, the tire stores and the tire companies marketing propaganda.

On a positive note, a couple of large local tire chains are actively pushing the 3 SEASON description for " all season ... " tires, recommending dedicated winter ( mountain / snowflake labelled), or the increasingly popular " all weather ... " tires for winter use. Yes, it is marketing, and selling more tires is the goal, but at least it promotes safety as well.

And, there is ongoing discussion about making winter tires mandatory in more Canadian provinces. Currently Quebec is the only Canadian province that has passed a law requiring winter tires be used, from Dec. 1 to March 15.
 
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Originally Posted by geeman789

On my Subaru Impreza, purchased in August, I got caught out on OE all season tires on ( Bridgestone RE92a ... ) in an early winter (October) storm. Even brand new, they were TERRIBLE ! in snow and ice. I too wondered why Subaru would choose that tire as the OE tire in Canada / Northern USA ???
A bigger question is the whole ALL SEASON, Mud + Snow designation tire makers are still allowed to use. To the average driver, ALL SEASON means exactly that ... adequate in all seasons, including winter. If the tire is NOT ADEQUATE in winter conditions, don't label ( or not be allowed to label by law ... ? ) the tire all season, Mud + Snow.
I have driven on many, many tires over my driving career. I have learned that SOME all season tires are actually pretty good in winter conditions. Others, however, have been TERRIBLE. And that is the problem. How does the average driver know what they are getting? Buyer beware.
I have for the last 20+ years used dedicated premium winter tires on all my vehicles, having learned my tire lessons. I just feel bad for those who blindly trust the car maker, the tire stores and the tire companies marketing propaganda.
On a positive note, a couple of large local tire chains are actively pushing the 3 SEASON description for " all season ... " tires, recommending dedicated winter ( mountain / snowflake labelled), or the increasingly popular " all weather ... " tires for winter use. Yes, it is marketing, and selling more tires is the goal, but at least it promotes safety as well.
And, there is ongoing discussion about making winter tires mandatory in more Canadian provinces. Currently Quebec is the only Canadian province that has passed a law requiring winter tires be used, from Dec. 1 to March 15.

We put RT43s on out daughter's Impreza and have been happy with those...she is a student and doesn't have to drive during storms. If she takes a long driving trip in the winter, we swap cars and I accept that maybe I won't go skiing if there is a big storm while she's gone.
We had to do a car swap for other reasons last month and there was unexpected snow on my way down to her school...not a tremendous amount, but the roads got pretty bad quickly and I was being very, very careful. I was apprehensive about driving her car in those conditions with the all seasons and was pleasantly surprised...the Impreza felt very solidly planted and predicable despite how slippery it was.
I started thinking about how narrow the tires are on that little car and decidedly that I have been too lazy in buying winter tires in the same size as the OEM/summer tires for my car. I knew that narrower tires were better for winter, but figured it would probably be a very minor effect...that trip in her Impreza has me convinced that I should go narrower next time I buy snows. I accept that dry handling will probably suffer as a result, no biggie. I should get another winter out of my R2 SUVs so I am talking about a ways out here...
 
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