Coolant issues with 88 IROC 350

[jcrules78]

OK guys this problem has been going on long enough and I need some help if I am ever going to solve it, so here it goes.
Ever since I have had my 1988 Camaro IROC 350, I have had a coolant issue. At first, after driving the car and turning it off, I would hear and see the coolant boiling back into the radiator. Every weekend, I would have to refill the reservoir, because it would be empty. I thought this was strange, because my gauge always said I was running at 220 or below, except for a few select times when it spiked while driving in heavy traffic on a really hot day. It would drop back down to operating range pretty quickly though. Someone told me to try and replace my radiator cap, so I did replace it with a GM 15 lb OEM cap. After I replaced the cap, the boiling of the coolant stopped, but I would still have to refill the reservoir once a week, so it didn't solve the mysterious coolant loss.
The next issue involved my heater control valve. A piece of this part broke off in one of its connecting rubber hoses, and antifreeze was shooting everywhere. I thought maybe a loose connection here could be the answer to my coolant loss, so I replaced the HCV with a OEM part. It didn't help the issue, I still had to replace the coolant at the end of every week.
Now that you know the issues here are the known facts. I think my secondary fan or one of its switches/relays could be faulty. My primary fan always kicks on at 220, but the few times my car has gone to 240 or above, the secondary fan wouldn't turn on. I tried to test the secondary fan by putting my A/C on max and also by tapping into the ALDL, which should activate it. Neither of these things started the secondary fan. I'm not sure if the fan itself is junk or one of its relays, but I have trouble believing this is causing the loss of fluid because my gauge barely ever goes above normal operating range.
There is never any visual signs of coolant loss, on the ground or under the car, no visible leaks near any hoses or the radiator itself. My oil and tranny fluid are not contaminated with coolant. My car never blows white exhaust and doesn't smell fishy, (well it started to a little after the HCV blew coolant all over my engine, but that is self-explanatory). But every weekend, the fluid reservoir is empty. Even though the coolant doesn't viciously boil back in the reservoir anymore, after it has been filled and driven it does steam a bit out the vented reservoir cap, like it may be a bit too hot. I always fill the reservoir with an even 50/50 mix of Prestone green and H2O.
What I am hoping you guys can help me do is come up with a plan of attack that will help me cancel out things so I can figure out what the issue is. I don't want to bring it to a general mechanic and ask him to check out the cooling system, because I know they will just start replacing everything and it will get costly. Would anyone be willing to conjure up a list starting with the easy small stuff and working up to the bigger things, so that I can begin to figure out what is wrong here? Any input or ideas would be totally appreciated. Sorry for the long post, I just want anyone interested in helping to understand all aspects of what I am dealing with here. Thanks in advance for your advice!!
JCRULZ

 

[Drew99GT]

You may want to purchase a cooling system pressure tester, pump it up, and let it sit to see if and how much it looses pressure. If it does, then look at every external coolent fitting/hose etc. If you find nothing, then start diagnosing for an internal coolent leak. You can buy UV dye for the coolent; add some before you pressure test and use a UV light to look at all the fittings/hoses.

It sounds like an internal coolent leak to me

Sometimes it's difficult to see coolent in the oil or tranny fluid/ or vice versa. Does it have an automatic with a tranny fluid cooler in the radiator end tank?

 

[jcrules78]

Do you have an idea how much those cooling system tester run for? Someone else has recommended I get a coolant pressure tester. If it is cheaper to go to my mechanic and have him do it, I could always take that route.
One of the ideas behind the whole thing is that I could have a heater core leak that evaporates before I can see it. I guess this is common in these cars, and it is hard to tell what is going on because the heater core is sort of hidden. I hope the internal leak you frown about isn't a head gasket, because that would really depress me! It's such an expensive fix, for a stupid gasket!
I'm not sure about the tranny fluid cooler in the radiator end tank, but it is an automatic!

 

[jcrules78]

I just checked my 88 Camaro specifications manual, and it claims that the 4 speed automatic transmission (700-R4) with the 350 engine comes standard with a tranny oil cooler that is "integral with the radiator," so to answer your last question, I believe yes.

 

[Chris142]

You can rent a pressure tester from many auto parts stores.

 

[jcrules78]

The heat smells fine, my mom actually had a car that released coolant in through the heating vents, so I know what that mist is like. Boy did that suck!! The antifreeze is green and doesn't look or smell too different other than the fact that there is a light uniform cloudyness. Just looks like old coolant. The tranny fluid was recently flushed and I just checked it today, it looks brand new still, pink and smells fine. Also the level was perfect while running hot in park.
I'll have to go to some of the local parts stores and see how much it costs to rent a pressurizer.

 

[George7941]

Tranny fluid is red, not pink. Tranny fluid becomes pink when contaminated with water. You should compare the color of the tranny fluid with new fluid.

 

[Drew99GT]

jcrules78 (nice name

), get some UV dye as well and use a balck light over the engine in total darkness if you can to find leaks.

One thing you also can do is get a used oil analysis done for the engine and tranny to rule out or confirm an internal leak.

 

[Thatwouldbegreat]

I'd stop driving the car and find out who is an honest top notch mechanic on your make and model.

You might have something as simple as a bad radiator cap or thermostat.... or a leaking hose.

You might have a leaking head gasket, or a cracked cylinder head..etc.

Let a good mechanic figure it out.

 

[Tosh]

First off, you should make sure you don't have trapped air somewhere in the cooling system. This could lead to overheating and a temp gauge that doesn't read right (but wouldn't explain where the coolant is going- my guess is slowly past the head gasket and out the tailpipe). Also, you should find out what's happening with the other fan. If it isn't coming on when needed, then any cooling problems will be aggravated. Perhaps the two problems are related?

 

[Drew99GT]

If you had that bad of a leak in the heater core, it would STINK to high heaven of coolent in the interior of the car. You'd likely see fog and steam coming up through the vents in the dash for defrost. Try running the heater once the car is warm and see if it smells like coolent.

Have you checked the antifreeze for any oilyness and also, look at the tranny fluid and see if it looks like moisture is in there. Those tranny fluid coolers in the radiator are known to crack and mix the trans fluid/coolent.

 

[jcrules78]

I checked the tranny fluid and it looks good. No problems there yet.
Drew, I've heard about the UV light method,I trying to determine whether I should try the pressurizer first or the UV. A UOA could come in handy, is this something that can be done by a general mechanic, or do I have to send the oil sample out to Timbuktu to find out what is up? Oh, and it is the name within the name that makes it so nice

Thatwouldbe, I know for a fact that it isn't the radiator cap, because I just recently changed that to a new 15 lb OEM one. I'm seriously hoping that what is wrong is in your first list, not the second, even though I haven't been able to see this possible hose leak

I plan on bringing the car to my mechanic soon, I just wanted to get some input on what you guys thought might be going on and if there were any easy fixes before I pay my mechanic to work on it. I also want to know what's going on when I do bring it in so that I can help direct my mechanic if he needs any info.
Tosh, is there a way to clear air out of the coolant system, besides just opening the radiator? I have a feeling the secondary fan not working could be a major contributor to the problem, but my gauge barely ever rises to 240 where supposedly the secondary fan is supposed to kick in. The only thing I can think of is perhaps the gauge is not totally accurate and the car actually does get hotter than what the gauge says. Then maybe the extremely hot coolant could be due to lack of a secondary fan's cooling ability.

 

[Dave H]

To rule out the fan, use small jumper wires from your battery to the plug that goes directly to that fan. If it comes on, the fan is good. A simple check for your secondary fan would be to swap its relay with a known working one, like your headlights. Then get the car warm enough that the secondary fan would kick on, and see if it does (do this during daylight if using your headlight relay!). On most cars I've seen, the secondary fan always comes on whenever the AC is on no matter what temp. Yours could possibly be different, but I'd check it with the different relay and the AC just to see. This could rule out the relay.
Coolant loss is sometimes puzzling. Especially with no apparent leaks, and losing an entire collant reservoir worth of coolant. The others are correct about the heater core stinking up the passenger compartment. The passenger floorboard would also get wet (my buddy had an '82 Z28 with a bad heater core. It wasn't fun helping him replace it). I'd definitely get a UOA done, because a head gasket leak is entirely possible.
To "burp" the cooling system, run the car with the radiator cap off. Watch when the coolant starts flowing through the radiator. It will release trapped air as it cycles through, and you'll need to refill accordingly. This is how my wife's Nissan pickup does it, yours could be slightly different (don't know how, but it could).
If there was a leak in the engine bay, it won't evaporate off as fast as plain water. Coolant seems to take a while to evaporate. I've seen it remain in my wife's engine bay for days after I've spilled some. And this is in Louisiana's summers.
I'd keep a check on your tranny fluid, too. It should be deep red, not anything like pink. The tranny cooler is in the bottom of the radiator, so it could be leaking in there. You could even send a sample of tranny fluid off to get analyzed for signs of coolant.
The UV dye and pressure testing a worthwhile ideas. That coolant is going somewhere, and with no apparent leaks, out the exhaust is a real possibility. But if it's an external leak, the dye will help you find it. A real small external leak (like a pinhole in a hose) could possibly go undetected without the dye. When checking it, make sure the car is up to operating temp and running so the entire system will be under pressure. It's common for small hose leaks to only "squirt" when the water pump is running (my wife's did that recently, but luckily it was on top of the hose where I almost got squirted by it. When I shut the truck off, it immediately stopped). If yours is pointing to the ground, it may not leave any evidence on your engine. And when you shut off, it will stop leaking because the water pump isn't running. Worth a check.
For a UOA, I use Blackstone Labs. A lot on here use that lab. You can search online for them (I think the forum rules prohibit me posting their web address), and they'll even mail you free sample kits (bottles and mailers to send them the oil or tranny fluid). It's about $20 for a standard test, and very much worth while. Not only would you know of any coolant leak (even the slightest amount), but you'll get a good idea of how your engine's internals are wearing with your current oil. Same with your tranny. Heck, they'll even analyze your coolant if you want. I'd do oil first, though. They have a pretty decent turn-around time, and will even email you the results same day they test it.

Hope this helps, because cooling system problems suck.

Dave

 

[jcrules78]

Wow Dave, I really appreciate your contribution. There are a lot of great ideas in there, those ideas for figuring out the fan problem are easy and seem highly effective. I like the idea of the UOA too. I've never even heard of Blackstone Labs and the UOA process, but it sure could answer a lot of questions.
It will be a while though now before I do any major things to that Camaro. I had a bad day with the IROC today, a very bad day. I had heard some ticking coming from my engine bay a few days ago, it would happen after I do a cold start to my car, and it would go away as I drive. Well, after a couple of days of this, I got in my car today after work, and the ticking seemed like it wasn't going to stop. I thought it was just some lifter noise, so I prepared to drive home. Apparently, it was something else, because my oil pressure gauge hit zero, and the ticking turned into clanking. Then the car stalled and started pouring oil down the oil filter unit and all over the oil pan. I had my car towed to my mechanic and he thinks maybe my oil pump went and while I was still driving it, I blew my engine.

I love that car, and this really upsets me. Perhaps there was a minor internal head gasket leak, which may have weakened the engine and oil pump leading to this catastrophe. Who knows. It will be sitting in my garage until I can have the engine rebuilt or afford a new crate engine. What a terrible day.

 

[Clyde65]

quote:

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Originally posted by jcrules78:
Apparently, it was something else, because my oil pressure gauge hit zero, and the ticking turned into clanking. Then the car stalled and started pouring oil down the oil filter unit and all over the oil pan.

---

That will most definately happen if your oil pressure sending unit takes a dive since it threads directly into an oil passage. The clicking noise is the lifters losing their hydraulic pressure from a catastrophic loss of oil. And since the hydraulic lifters are at the top of the engine, they will be the first to be effected by a loss of oil pressure.

[ August 23, 2006, 04:45 AM: Message edited by: Clyde65 ]

 

[jcrules78]

It is a total bummer. I really like that car, and I don't plan on getting rid of it. I hope to do a rebuild on it if I can save up some money. I could have saved the whole engine if I had just brought the car to the mechanic the second I heard that clicking. I was stubborn, and now I lose out.

 

[Drew99GT]

Hey, if you got it shut down in time, 'perhaps' it didn't scorch the bearings and everything else in the motor. I'll say a prayer for the old 350

 

[Tosh]

You weren't being stubborn. Don't blame yourself until you know for sure what happened inside the engine. It may not be as bad as a 'blown' engine.

 

[jcrules78]

I hope not dude. I have a feeling that I lost a rod and spun the crankcase bearing at least, because along with the clank clank clank, you kind of hear this whirring slightly grinding noise. I think I will take the battery out this weekend, and contemplate my plan. Some people have said that this is a great time to upgrade, and to rebuild the engine with nicer parts. Others have told me to drop a brand new nice crate motor in there. One guy suggested an LT1 block, he said that would shock the pants off the fool who pulls up next to me in his 2005 Mustang GT thinking my car is a typical IROC! Can you say 400 HP??? Anyway, lots of things to think about.
Hey Drew thanks for the prayers, but I think they have come a bit too late.

I appreciate your optimism, it could be true that things aren't really as bad in there as it seems. We'll know next spring most likely!