ConsumerGuide : Test drive of '22 FORD Escape Titanium PHEV ...

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At 40k this is a tough sell...but a plug in electric capable of 40 miles is quite attractive. Manufacturers need a youtube channel to advertise electric vehicles so they can explain how simple it is to plug them in overnight and attain the "40 electric miles". My concern would be that I need electrical work done to my home to get sufficient charging....but that concern may be unfounded.

As a car guy - I am already cringing of working on a hybrid vehicle someday. If Ford offered a 10 year bumper to bumper 150k mile warranty, that would sell me on it.
 
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At 40k this is a tough sell.
Umm, it's $50,000 out the door. There is no way I know of to get that vehicle for $40K.

It's a compact SUV, with a conventional Li Ion battery that sees a high cycle count and high discharge C-rate. There is no magic battery, the PHEV's torture their batteries and lifespan suffers. Expect a very expensive battery replacement at the 8 year mark. But what do I know....

Of note, they are concentrating on making the battery pack "energy dense". That's exactly the opposite of what' good for high cycle count batteries.

Keep in mind that the Chevy Volt's are needing batteries now, and they are higher quality than what Ford uses.


 
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From the article: Base price: $40,700 (not including $1495 destination charge)
Well of course I was thinking about the Titanium trim model they tested. Not the base model. Price as tested: $46,360 + $1,495 destination charge and then 7% tax, registration and title. In rough numbers, in today's market, that's no less than $52,000 out the door, for a COMPACT SUV that is smaller and less capable than the competition. I don't dislike it, but that's too much. Way too much.
 
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Well of course I was thinking about the Titanium trim model they tested. Not the base model. Price as tested: $46,360 + $1,495 destination charge and then 7% tax, registration and title. In rough numbers, in today's market, that's no less than $52,000 out the door, for a COMPACT SUV that is smaller and less capable than the competition. I don't dislike it, but that's too much. Way too much.
All new cars are overpriced like that.
 
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Certainly the technology drives up the cost to the unaffordable range. The base model Ford Escape goes for $28K and the nice gas powered version goes for $32K. Twenty thousand dollars buys a lot of gas.
Well the base model gets an average of 30 mpg and 20k would probably buy about 5k gallons of gas which at 30 mpg would get you 150k miles. You'd probably have to drive that car over 200k just to break even on the gas savings by paying that initial 20k up front.
 

CKN

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Well the base model gets an average of 30 mpg and 20k would probably buy about 5k gallons of gas which at 30 mpg would get you 150k miles. You'd probably have to drive that car over 200k just to break even on the gas savings by paying that initial 20k up front.
Sounds ideal for a BITOGer!
 
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Sounds ideal for a BITOGer!
I got lazy and didn't really calculate it. Escape is rated for 105 mpge or 32 kilowatts per 100 miles. I'm going to use my state rate of 23.85 per kilowatt so 150k miles works out to $11,448 vs 20k for gas for the same distance. Getting lazy again, probably over 350k to break even and you probably need a new battery pack before you hit 350k. I guess it'd make sense if you have lower electric rates or higher gas prices or good tax subsidies but the raw math doesn't quite work out.
 
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Well the base model gets an average of 30 mpg and 20k would probably buy about 5k gallons of gas which at 30 mpg would get you 150k miles. You'd probably have to drive that car over 200k just to break even on the gas savings by paying that initial 20k up front.

Add in extra maintenance costs for the more fuel efficient one, I.E. - more breakdowns and the fuel efficient one will cost more. IMO, same with a new furnace. What you save in fuel you more then spend in breakdowns.
 
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At 40k this is a tough sell...but a plug in electric capable of 40 miles is quite attractive. Manufacturers need a youtube channel to advertise electric vehicles so they can explain how simple it is to plug them in overnight and attain the "40 electric miles". My concern would be that I need electrical work done to my home to get sufficient charging....but that concern may be unfounded.

As a car guy - I am already cringing of working on a hybrid vehicle someday. If Ford offered a 10 year bumper to bumper 150k mile warranty, that would sell me on it.

The original Chevy Volt managed 43 miles per charge, and had plenty of space to haul most things much like an Escape. Ford hasn't accomplished all that much.
 
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Truth Be Told #1

I read this thread and will comment on a few things that have been said that I think are misleading about the cost to purchase and own a PHEV (Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicle). I am a retired NASA propulsion and robotics engineer and have purchased 21 autos in my life, ten of them new, three of them supercharged, and the most recent in 2018, a new PHEV. And I did almost all of the repair and maintenance on them myself. I ordered my first Ford in April this year, an Escape Titanium PHEV that is in production right now. Judge my credibility as you will. I do not work or advocate for anyone or any company. I just need to stretch my limited retirement income as far as I can like most everyone else.

In this post I will talk about price and the big misconception of PHEV initial cost. In the next post I will talk about maintenance, reliability and fuel costs for these vehicles. Here are a few misleading quotes from this thread on the Ford Escape PHEV:


“At 40k this is a tough sell”

Nope. They are selling like crazy. I could not and cannot find one on the lot within 500 miles. There’s that and the fact that there was a $1000 incentive offered by Ford and no MSRP markup to special order one. All plug-ins, but especially PHEVs are in super high demand now because most Americans buy according to their pocketbooks and PHEVs will be generally cheaper to buy, fuel, and maintain. Partly because they are better than gas only vehicles, partly due to the price of gas lately, and partly due to government incentives. Not to mention that the tree-huggers love them.


“Umm, it's $50,000 out the door. There is no way I know of to get that vehicle for $40K.”

Nope. Here is the way I’m getting mine for way less than $40K. And anyone could have got this deal. It’s sticker MSRP price. I have its VIN and sticker in hand. My 2022 Ford Escape Titanium trim PHEV should be delivered next month.

$42,120 MSRP, which includes destination and delivery

+$4,000 +TTL and all fees (approximate in Texas)

-$2500 State grant incentive

-$6,843 Fed Tax Credit

$36,777 Final Net Price I will have paid for the car


“Yea-try to find one at the "Base Price".”

I tried and succeeded. Buying off the lot is obsolete or very expensive. Anyone can do what I did. When I first tried to special order, a dealer told me they were not taking orders. They were just lazy and they will eventually go out of business with that attitude. I contacted other nearby dealers by telephone and email. When one said sure, I sent them the build that I got using the build-a-ford web site and they said come on in and sign the papers. I ask them if they would send in my Tx state grant reservation, and they said sure. I went in the next day and ordered the vehicle and they sent the reservation paper to Austin. That was about April 14, 2022. I was surprised to find out that they did not need to collect any money from me up front and even more surprised to find out from them that Ford was offering a $1000 incentive to submit a special order. I got a verification of my $2,500 grant reservation from the state in a few days. And I have received status updates on my vehicle build from Ford since then. On Aug 25, it was scheduled for production on Oct 10 and assigned a VIN. On Sept 6, its production date was moved up to Sept 26. And last week on about Sept 23, I noticed that its status was showing as “In Production.” I expect it will show as “Built” shortly.

“The base model Ford Escape goes for $28K and the nice gas powered version goes for $32K. Twenty thousand dollars buys a lot of gas.”

“You'd probably have to drive that car over 200k just to break even”


Nope. The base Ford Escape gas model is the S trim. It has a 181 hp 3 cylinder 1.5L turbocharged engine that likely is noisy and peaky with acceleration lag. Here is what it goes for. If you don’t believe me, do the research yourself.:

$28680 MSRP, which includes destination and delivery (from Fords web site)

+$2,719 +TTL and all fees (approximate in Texas)

-$0 no State grant incentive

-$0 no Fed Tax Credit

$31,399 Final Net Price

If do the same math for the “nice gas powered version” that would be the SEL trim, again only available with the 181 hp 3 cylinder 1.5L turbocharged engine.

$32,390 MSRP, which includes destination and delivery (from Fords web site)

+$3,071 +TTL and all fees (approximate in Texas)

-$0 no State grant incentive

-$0 no Fed Tax Credit

$35,461 Final Net Price

Compare those as close to apples to apples as possible with the cheapest Escape PHEV SE trim. It has a 166 HP 4 cylinder 2.5L Atkinson engine combined in the 4th generation HF45 eCVT transaxle with two motor/generators to give a smooth shift free 221 HP (more on this remarkable power train later). It is equipped much better than the gas S trim, a little better than the gas SE trim and not quite as good as the gas SEL trim.

$36,950 MSRP, which includes destination and delivery (from Fords web site)

+$3,503 +TTL and all fees (approximate in Texas)

-$2,500 State grant incentive

-$6,843 Fed Tax Credit

$31,110 Final Net Price


So obviously the bottom trim PHEV is better equipped than the bottom two gas trim Escapes, but its net cost is less than any of the gas trim Escape models. There is no payback time.

If I purchased the Escape SE trim PHEV instead of the Escape SE trim gas model, I would save $1,756.

According to calculators at the EPA fueleconomy.gov web site, that $1756 will fuel the Escape SE PHEV for about 29,267 miles. This assumes 55% of the miles are in stop and go traffic, cost of regular gas is $3.65/gal and cost of electricity is $0.13/kW-hr. In our experience with our Chrysler Pacifica PHEV over the past 4 years, this is pretty accurate.

When I step back and ask the question: Why would I buy a slower, noisier, more expensive gas powered car with a range of 444 miles that costs $1800/year to fuel instead of the same car that is a quicker, quieter and smoother PHEV for $1756 less, with a range of 520 miles that costs $900/year to fuel. Not to mention that the transmission is simpler, more robust and ultimately more reliable.

The answer for me is simple. I wouldn’t.

So perhaps instead of falsely thinking that you will have to spend $20k more on a PHEV than a gas car, you should be wondering where you are going to get the extra $1756 to buy the Escape SE gas model instead of the quieter, more powerful, and smoother Escape SE PHEV model. And you can also wonder where you are going to get the extra $6000 to buy the additional gas it takes to fuel the gas model in the next 6.7 years (100,000 miles).
 
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Our base 2022 SE Escape PHEV is scheduled to be built next week. 3% below INVOICE. As it so often works, if you can be content with a) Base trim b) Waiting for an order /deal, the value proposition is markedly different. I actually like the subtle and smoother styling of the Escape over the over-styled and a gazilion edges (my opinion) Rav4 and the like.

Rough #s:

MSRP 37k
Sell price @ 3% below Invoice, - $500 special order Rebate + ~$450 doc fee =
$34k
Less $6.8k federal credit =
$27.2k aside from governmental taxes / DMV.

Plug it in, plug it in. Overnight, no home electrical work required.
My dealer is in PA. If it had been in NJ, a new $1-$2k NJ EV program would have applied as well.
 
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Sep 24, 2022
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Is Ford Hybrid still a rebranded Toyota hybrid system?
The Ford hybrids, Chrysler Pacifica Hybrid and the Toyota hybrids all now use the same transmission configuration. The Hyundais and Kias use a more complex transmission that seems to be a conventional automatic transmisson differentially coupled to the electric motor. The Ford, Chrysler and Toyota now use the parallel axis dual electric motor/generators arrangement in the transmission which is very simple, robust and efficient by comparrison to other automatic transmissions. For a great education on this type of transmission go to youtube and search on Weber automotive. Ironically, it was Ford who started using the current parallel axis configuration about 11 years before Toyota. So you might say, Toyota is a rebranded version of the Ford transmission. It's essentially a direct drive transmission with 3 drive motor components (gas engine and two electric motor/generators) deferentially coupled to the final drive. It does no shifting so there are no active clutches. Toyota originally used a coaxial arrangement of the two electric motor/generators which was less efficient in the prius. Ford was the first to come out with the parallel arrangement in 2005. Toyota started using it in 2016 and the Pacifica hybrid in 2017. Both the hybrid and the plug-in hybrid transmissions are essentially the same. The main traction electric motor/generator is directly geared to the final drive so it always turns when the drive wheels turn. Since there is no shifting, and the gas engine can only drive in the forward direction, the electric motor/generators are the only way to drive these vehicles in reverse. In a nutshell, the electric motor/generators can drive and dynamically brake in either direction with a very wide torque/efficiency curve. They are driven in such a manner so as to run the gas engine in its most efficient speed range depending on load an vehicle speed. These motor/generators provide torque and braking from zero rpm to the neighborhood of 10,000 to 14,000 rpm. They have DC magnet armatures that are cooled with transmission oil as are the stators and are completely contained inside the transmission. These electric motors' horsepower capability range from somewhere around 40 to 130 HP each. The gas engines are not considered Auto cycle, but instead operate on the Atkinson cycle where the intake valves stay open a good portion of the compression stroke for increased efficiency. These gas engines generally do not have as much horsepower when compared to the same displacement conventional gas engine, but can operate more efficiently. When you add the massive instant torque, respectable horsepower and superior efficiency of the electric motor/generators, you get very smooth torque at any speed and excellent instant acceleration with no shifting or turbo lag. The electric motors alone can move these vehicles briskly, quietly and smoothly at any speed up to and beyond 70mph. Having had a Pacifica PHEV since 2018, we will never own a plain gas powered vehicle again. And we ordered a Ford Escape PHEV in April that just finished build. With current incentives, the PHEV versions of these vehicles are cheaper than the same trim level gas only versions. There's that and the fact that their range generally beats the range of all other vehicles including gas only, hybrid and electric vehicles. Our Pacifica PHEV can go from Dallas to Kansas City at the speed limit without stopping for gas with an EPA range of 570 miles with a 16.5 gal tank. The Escape PHEV we have on order has a range of 520 miles with a 12 gal tank. They both use regular 87 octane gas and get better mileage in stop and go traffic than on the highway. There is just no down side to purchasing a PHEV right now.
 
Joined
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My program spell checker makes mistakes, as I do.
It should have read:
"...3 drive motor components (gas engine and two electric motor/generators) differentially coupled to the final drive." not deferentially,
and
"The gas engines are not considered Otto cycle, but instead operate on the Atkinson cycle..." not Auto.

I use the term differential loosely to describe a gear system that has 3 shafts geared together without clutches so that turning one will turn the other two allowing a variable speed ratio between those other two. A planetary gear set is one such differential drive used in these transmissions where shafts are connected to the planet carrier, the sun gear and the ring gear. Another example used in this transmission is two drive gears from two power/braking sources meshing with the same gear.
 
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