Congress removes CARB and other state's ability to set emissions standards

[PandaBear]

https://www.latimes.com/environment...n-bid-to-overturn-california-gas-only-car-ban

How is this CARB mandate NOT the "regulating of interstate commerce"? Effectively CA is blocking a Detroit company (say Ford, GM) from selling their cars across state lines? When CA announced this, I immediately thought this wouldn't be constitutional and "interstate commerce" clause. Lets not forget when this clean air business started. This isn't 1969, even my camaro is "CA Compliant." Under the auspicies of clean air and CARB, we've seen CA tank the oil industry in this state to the point where our gas prices are nearly double everywhere else in the country. Enough is enough.
My uncle visited from Wisconsin for the first time since 1988. He could believe how clear the air was in comparison.
Oh and by the way, my cost to charge an electric car is 30 cents a kWh at home at 3 am, 50-70 at a supercharger. Its not about "smog" or the environment; its a racket.

It is not preventing someone else from making that same standard like "only if you build your cars in CA you can sell it here or tariff". Detroit is building cars for CARB standard and sell a lot of them here with no extra tariff vs cars build elsewhere.

The problem is cost and economy of scale. The justification is without California the Fed standard can't hit economy of scale in manufacturing all by itself, so they want to remove that.

Air quality can have a lot to do with density and local climate. In Central Valley air can stay trapped and turn into smog with the sunlight whereas in mid west gets blown away and the corn field just absorb them before smog form.

 

[PandaBear]

My son recently sold his Tesla. On top of the hassle of finding a charger, and waiting, he said that his cost was more than gasoline cost for his old BRZ. And he was lucky in that there was a charging station near his gym. According to a report on Car & Driver, it costs between $.49 - $.66 per kWh to use the Super Charger.

To be fair, if he wants to save money he should have bought a Chevy Bolt or Volt to compare against Tesla. Tesla have higher cost in body shop due to their own problem not related to EV and Elon is not running it like Toyota so it won't cost the same to own as a Toyota. This is why I won't buy it regardless of how much I like its tech.

Follow the people who do things for a living and pick the same tool they use, and you will always get the best choices.

 

[4WD]

I love it!

To be clear: I don't have a problem with people flying private. Good for them that they can afford. I know I would if I could. Beats seating with with my knees in my mouth for 10~12 hours on a transatlantic flight. My problem is with people who fly private, then lecture others on climate change (used to be global warming - marketing, what ya gonna do about it?), without even being able to provide a shred of evidence on the subject matter except ... anecdotes. So, for those of you flying private: good for you, I love it!

Well, stories had over 1000 private jets at Davos R Us - but fact checkers say it was only half that - so you know - no big deal

 

[UncleDave]

Some cars are not for export to begin with, especially those pickups and SUVs for US market. Also when things already hit economy of scale then multiple models for cost savings still make sense (say you can use less platinum in the cat) even with 2 models.

For sure.

Im not sure my reply was worded very well.

My point is the country of import gets to decide what standards an auto has to meet and by building to the california standard, its basically compliant with the rest of the world.

They'll figure it out, and we'll get the choices we vote for and support with our pockets.

 

[PandaBear]

For sure.

Im not sure my reply was worded very well.

My point is the country of import gets to decide what standards an auto has to meet and by building to the california standard, its basically compliant with the rest of the world.

They'll figure it out, and we'll get the choices we vote for and support with our pockets.

I see, yeah that I agree with you. California market however is not even just one market as well. I would imagine the pickup counties and the urban SF / LA metro would still not be buying the same cars / SUVs that sell well in other places even if CARB is removed.

 

[LostInTransit]

I'm not good at political or law lingo so does this mean that if I find (which I did) a devices that not CARB legal and install it on the van it could eventually become CARB legal or CARB laws have been removed.

 

[ripcord]

I'm not good at political or law lingo so does this mean that if I find (which I did) a devices that not CARB legal and install it on the van it could eventually become CARB legal or CARB laws have been removed.

No. All CARB laws have NOT been revoked from my continued research. The Wall Street Journal article I first posted may have over stated the effects of the new Congressional changes. It looks like Congress revoked waivers for three different things (EV only mandate, newly imposed heavy duty truck restrictions, and new extremely restrictive NOX limits.) It's NOT clear to me that this applies to previous waivers. We need more clarification.

 

[Al]

In other words, we are for local control (at the state level in this case) except when we aren't...

Rational people and the Constitution say that States' right trump all except when it runs afoul of Federal law-not affecting other States is then assumed. I thin though that this Federal measure will not hold up bc there "is" no Federal Standard?

 

[ripcord]

Rational people and the Constitution say that States' right trump all except when it runs afoul of Federal law-not affecting other States is then assumed. I thin though that this Federal measure will not hold up bc there "is" no Federal Standard?

There IS a Federal Standard. It's the Clean Air Act of 1970 which is the law that requires the Federal Government to regulate emissions. It's this law that the EPA is tasked with implementing and enforcing and because it is a federal law, it supercedes
states' authority. Because all state clean air laws are superceded, California (or other states) need special permission from the EPA to enforce their laws in the form of waivers.

So, the authority that the federal government has given a state to regulate air quality can be legally revoked, especially if that authority has been abused as has been determined by Congress.

 

[haggler]

It is not preventing someone else from making that same standard like "only if you build your cars in CA you can sell it here or tariff". Detroit is building cars for CARB standard and sell a lot of them here with no extra tariff vs cars build elsewhere.

The problem is cost and economy of scale. The justification is without California the Fed standard can't hit economy of scale in manufacturing all by itself, so they want to remove that.

Air quality can have a lot to do with density and local climate. In Central Valley air can stay trapped and turn into smog with the sunlight whereas in mid west gets blown away and the corn field just absorb them before smog form.

I'm not sure I follow your analogy. Trying to limit emissions is not the same as a de facto ban on gasoline (and lets not forget non-plug in hybrid) cars by setting the limit to 0. Also, tariff is not an outright ban its a tax. They are telling Detroit, you cant sell your gasoline cars here. This directly affects interstate commerce.
This is California's MO: regulate into non-existence. They've already done this with the clean fuel standard. All the gasoline for CA is produced in state, yet refinery's are shutting down left and right. It's by design. The voters didn't vote for CARB or this ban.
CA doesn't have the direct authority to set any emissions standards, hence the waivers. This isn't 1969, if one believes the EPA has the jurisdiction in this matter then the emissions standard need to be set at the federal level.

According to the Clean Air Act Section 209 - State Standards, EPA shall grant an authorization under section 209(e)(2), unless the Administrator finds that California:

• was arbitrary and capricious in its finding that its standards are, in the aggregate, at least as protective of public health and welfare as applicable federal standards;
• does not need such standards to meet compelling and extraordinary conditions; or
• California’s standards and accompanying enforcement procedures are not consistent with this section.

CA EV adoption is the already the highest in the nation. Let the market do it's job. Once the battery tech gets advanced, gas cars won't be as popular naturally even if the price of electricity is sky high in CA. It's very, very convenient to charge at home.

 

[Foreman04]

I will repeat what I have posted probably a dozen times before-
I grew up in So. Cal in the 60's. We used to go out to my Grandma's house in the San Gabriel Valley on the weekends/holidays. It was twenty miles as the crow flies to the San Gabriel Mountains. The air was so dirty-it would be rare to see them. The only time they could be seen is when the winds came in and literally blew the smog to Victorville. My throat would hurt badly from playing outside and breathing the air.
CARB changed all that.
Today-there are more vehicles registered in California than any other state-and the air is cleaner than it has ever been.
It's easy for someone to sit in Virginia and say "great".
Well...I lived it.
Not only is this a step backwards for California-but a step backwards for state rights.

I agree, it’s a step back. Those who haven’t experienced it or haven’t seen it first hand……….

 

[Nessism1]

That was a market decision by a couple of manufacturers. In the rest of the country of course.

CA banned the sale of new ICE lawn equipment produced 2024 and later. Honda stopped building ICE lawn mowers some months earlier, but not sure if the two are related.

 

[Mechanician]

CA banned the sale of new ICE lawn equipment produced 2024 and later. Honda stopped building ICE lawn mowers some months earlier, but not sure if the two are related.

Husqvarna IIRC was the largest manufacturer of ICE equipment, and has closed plants as well. I knew about Cali - but it seems the market is just changing in general. That's what I was referring to.

 

[gfh77665]

In my view we need cleaner air. Every year we add emisions to the air that my children breath, eat and drink. That being said, I agree the standard should be set (nationwide) by the EPA.

I support nationwide standards but until China etc, stop polluting with impunity our efforts are futile to some degree.

 

[svtrit]

When I lived in CA in the early 2000’s (Central Valley), the air was dirty from dust caused by Ag and a major inversion layer that broke at night. Morning was beautiful and supper time was brown and ugly.

CA got too big for its britches. This is a nice reset and I hope it brings some relief to Californias struggling to make ends meet, at least a little.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

I think you are overthinking it. The current EPA standards are not in anyway going to set pollution backwards in CA
Every car is fuel injected, every car has a CAT, every car is maximized to burn fuel efficiently. Dont the concerned.
Not only that but the punitive gasoline prices due to taxes in CA will make sure EVs continue to take some market share from gasoline but then again, electric rates are punitive too.

Oh yes they will. CAFE is allegedly going to be rolled back.

 

[SC Maintenance]

There IS a Federal Standard. It's the Clean Air Act of 1970 which is the law that requires the Federal Government to regulate emissions. It's this law that the EPA is tasked with implementing and enforcing and because it is a federal law, it supercedes
states' authority. Because all state clean air laws are superceded, California (or other states) need special permission from the EPA to enforce their laws in the form of waivers.

So, the authority that the federal government has given a state to regulate air quality can be legally revoked, especially if that authority has been abused as has been determined by Congress.

The only thing that allows the EPA to exist is the so called "commerce clause" - which has to do with regulating commerce between states. Otherwise they have no authority to regulate emissions at all - its not in the constitution - so "to the states, or to the people" Dat be us.

So by definition - if there using the Commerce Clause excuse to regulate emissions, then by definition it needs to be evenly applied across all states. Hence there should be no exemptions or waivers. If you buy the Commerce Clause argument - which the court did. Otherwise they have no authority at all?

Another oxi-moron in this whole thing.

 

[ripcord]

Oh yes they will. CAFE is allegedly going to be rolled back.

I think what's getting rolled back is the upcoming standards. The new ones for upcoming model years are so stringent that they are designed to force automakers to stop making ICE vehicles due to the expense and technical difficulty.

 

[Cujet]

Let the market do it's job.

I agree. A free market is best. I would purchase an EV if I could afford it (for the performance). Sadly, my new F150 5.0 is far more capable than EV pickup trucks at twice the price. This fact is not lost on most purchasers.

Once the battery tech gets advanced, gas cars won't be as popular naturally even if the price of electricity is sky high in CA. It's very, very convenient to charge at home.

Battery tech is not going to advance much from here, as there are only so many ions we can move. There are real, physical limits.

 

[eljefino]

There IS a Federal Standard. It's the Clean Air Act of 1970 which is the law that requires the Federal Government to regulate emissions. It's this law that the EPA is tasked with implementing and enforcing and because it is a federal law, it supercedes
states' authority. Because all state clean air laws are superceded, California (or other states) need special permission from the EPA to enforce their laws in the form of waivers.

California grandfathered in their right to regulate air emissions by inventing CARB before the Clean Air Act. This is why, in the last couple decades, states have only been able to choose Federal or California specs.