Cold Cuts Electric Vehicle Range
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This just in: batteries lose efficiency when they are cold
In other news - water turns into steam when heated to 212F, and solidifies when chilled below 32F.
In other news - water turns into steam when heated to 212F, and solidifies when chilled below 32F.
Originally Posted by SirTanon
This just in: batteries lose efficiency when they are cold
In other news - water turns into steam when heated to 212F, and solidifies when chilled below 32F.
Yeah but many people don't think about that--some people don't even know this fact. Not everyone is technical, or comes from that kind of background. Throw this crumb out there and hopefully a few prospective buyers, who are doing their due diligence *before they buy* might find this and might properly use this info in their car buying decision.
This just in: batteries lose efficiency when they are cold
In other news - water turns into steam when heated to 212F, and solidifies when chilled below 32F.
Yeah but many people don't think about that--some people don't even know this fact. Not everyone is technical, or comes from that kind of background. Throw this crumb out there and hopefully a few prospective buyers, who are doing their due diligence *before they buy* might find this and might properly use this info in their car buying decision.
Its a problem. They should paste a warning in the Owner's Manual and/or require dealerships to warn owners about the drop in range due to cold weather. Most of it is from use of the electrical resistance (like a toaster) heating. My Focus EV has seat warmers which use less heat, and I typically use those, along with wearing gloves & coat when I want to preserve the range.
Originally Posted by SirTanon
This just in: batteries lose efficiency when they are cold.
Yes, that is the vague response not needed here. Needed is how much cold impacts battery performance to any significant degree. In my direct experience with a '16 Focus EV, the resistance heater climate control is an energy hog, and the Li-Ion battery electrochemistry itself doesn't get much worse with cold.
Its ridiculous to think most people are going to "intuitively know" how much the various battery chemistries and anode/cathode structures are affected by cold. And you know you its not widely known how alkaline, Ni-MH, carbon-zinc, or even other lithium-based chemistries (Lithium-Cobalt Oxide, Lithium-Titanate, Lithium-Iron Phosphate, Lithium-Nickel Manganese Cobalt Oxide, Lithium-Manganese Oxide, or any other patented microstructure battery tech) perform compared to each other.
This just in: batteries lose efficiency when they are cold.
Yes, that is the vague response not needed here. Needed is how much cold impacts battery performance to any significant degree. In my direct experience with a '16 Focus EV, the resistance heater climate control is an energy hog, and the Li-Ion battery electrochemistry itself doesn't get much worse with cold.
Its ridiculous to think most people are going to "intuitively know" how much the various battery chemistries and anode/cathode structures are affected by cold. And you know you its not widely known how alkaline, Ni-MH, carbon-zinc, or even other lithium-based chemistries (Lithium-Cobalt Oxide, Lithium-Titanate, Lithium-Iron Phosphate, Lithium-Nickel Manganese Cobalt Oxide, Lithium-Manganese Oxide, or any other patented microstructure battery tech) perform compared to each other.
I started researching used Nissan Leaf's because you can get them for pretty cheap and my commute to work is under 20 miles each way. Reading through the forums It was reported that the range went from around 80-90 miles in the summer, down to less than 40 in negative digits. That killed the deal for me right there... Pretty amazing they lose so much in the cold!
Last edited:
Originally Posted by oil_film_movies
Originally Posted by SirTanon
This just in: batteries lose efficiency when they are cold.
Yes, that is the vague response not needed here. Needed is how much cold impacts battery performance to any significant degree. In my direct experience with a '16 Focus EV, the resistance heater climate control is an energy hog, and the Li-Ion battery electrochemistry itself doesn't get much worse with cold.
Its ridiculous to think most people are going to "intuitively know" how much the various battery chemistries and anode/cathode structures are affected by cold. And you know you its not widely known how alkaline, Ni-MH, carbon-zinc, or even other lithium-based chemistries (Lithium-Cobalt Oxide, Lithium-Titanate, Lithium-Iron Phosphate, Lithium-Nickel Manganese Cobalt Oxide, Lithium-Manganese Oxide, or any other patented microstructure battery tech) perform compared to each other.
I think most people know batteries do not work as well in the cold without knowing battery chemistry, but nothing surprises me anymore. I had to try to explain why an alternator wouldn't keep an electric vehicle running endlessly to someone the other day. I don't think I would own an electric vehicle in a cold climate. If I want to where a big coat and gloves while I drive, I will take my ATV.
How do the defrosters work on these things?
Originally Posted by SirTanon
This just in: batteries lose efficiency when they are cold.
Yes, that is the vague response not needed here. Needed is how much cold impacts battery performance to any significant degree. In my direct experience with a '16 Focus EV, the resistance heater climate control is an energy hog, and the Li-Ion battery electrochemistry itself doesn't get much worse with cold.
Its ridiculous to think most people are going to "intuitively know" how much the various battery chemistries and anode/cathode structures are affected by cold. And you know you its not widely known how alkaline, Ni-MH, carbon-zinc, or even other lithium-based chemistries (Lithium-Cobalt Oxide, Lithium-Titanate, Lithium-Iron Phosphate, Lithium-Nickel Manganese Cobalt Oxide, Lithium-Manganese Oxide, or any other patented microstructure battery tech) perform compared to each other.
I think most people know batteries do not work as well in the cold without knowing battery chemistry, but nothing surprises me anymore. I had to try to explain why an alternator wouldn't keep an electric vehicle running endlessly to someone the other day. I don't think I would own an electric vehicle in a cold climate. If I want to where a big coat and gloves while I drive, I will take my ATV.
How do the defrosters work on these things?
Yep, cold really takes a severe hit with hybrids.
My 18' Camry SE Hybrid which should get 43/46, I am down to about 33-35 MPG. Winter fuel, increase drag, colder temps for batteries, heaters, etc…. No good for the MPG. It's just crazy to be so far under the estimates… Any car I've driven before, even in winter, I would just be on the low end of the MPG range. Not 10 mpg under.
I do wish for hybrids/electric vehicles though, they would do more realistic temp conditions on those estimates. Like having warm and cool climate averages, just to give a more accurate perspective on fuel consumption. Not everyone lives in warm states year round!
My 18' Camry SE Hybrid which should get 43/46, I am down to about 33-35 MPG. Winter fuel, increase drag, colder temps for batteries, heaters, etc…. No good for the MPG. It's just crazy to be so far under the estimates… Any car I've driven before, even in winter, I would just be on the low end of the MPG range. Not 10 mpg under.
I do wish for hybrids/electric vehicles though, they would do more realistic temp conditions on those estimates. Like having warm and cool climate averages, just to give a more accurate perspective on fuel consumption. Not everyone lives in warm states year round!
Originally Posted by tmorris1
I think most people know batteries do not work as well in the cold without knowing battery chemistry, but nothing surprises me anymore.
How much matters here. Its not that bad. And non-technical industry people (most of us) would not know its actually a range reduction of 12% on a 20F drive. AAA study cleared it up. Maybe somebody would have guessed 70%, I don't know..... Can anybody really say if its linear with temperature drop? An Electrochemist would know, maybe, if they knew the exact battery chemistry.
Originally Posted by tmorris1
If I want to where a big coat and gloves while I drive, I will take my ATV.
With the windows closed, no wind hitting me, and just running the heater once every 10 minutes for 30 seconds at a time, its quite comfortable at 10F outside to drive that way, gloves & coat on. No wind chill factor here. Your ATV experience would be vastly different & is a poor analogy.
Originally Posted by tmorris1
How do the defrosters work on these things?
Same as the heaters on EVs. Resistance heating, IsquaredR type stuff. ..... Except for some more expensive EVs that have a Heat Pump, not just resistance heating like the cheaper EVs have. Jaguar E-Pace has a heat pump, my '16 Focus EV has the cheaper resistance heating. Heat Pumps are twice as efficient as resistance heating, meaning the AAA study would have only seen a 20% or so drop in range with the E-Pace's heat pump running.
I think most people know batteries do not work as well in the cold without knowing battery chemistry, but nothing surprises me anymore.
How much matters here. Its not that bad. And non-technical industry people (most of us) would not know its actually a range reduction of 12% on a 20F drive. AAA study cleared it up. Maybe somebody would have guessed 70%, I don't know..... Can anybody really say if its linear with temperature drop? An Electrochemist would know, maybe, if they knew the exact battery chemistry.
Originally Posted by tmorris1
If I want to where a big coat and gloves while I drive, I will take my ATV.
With the windows closed, no wind hitting me, and just running the heater once every 10 minutes for 30 seconds at a time, its quite comfortable at 10F outside to drive that way, gloves & coat on. No wind chill factor here. Your ATV experience would be vastly different & is a poor analogy.
Originally Posted by tmorris1
How do the defrosters work on these things?
Same as the heaters on EVs. Resistance heating, IsquaredR type stuff. ..... Except for some more expensive EVs that have a Heat Pump, not just resistance heating like the cheaper EVs have. Jaguar E-Pace has a heat pump, my '16 Focus EV has the cheaper resistance heating. Heat Pumps are twice as efficient as resistance heating, meaning the AAA study would have only seen a 20% or so drop in range with the E-Pace's heat pump running.
Originally Posted by SirTanon
This just in: batteries lose efficiency when they are cold
In other news - water turns into steam when heated to 212F, and solidifies when chilled below 32F.
Water can be supercooled if there's no seed crystal.
This just in: batteries lose efficiency when they are cold
In other news - water turns into steam when heated to 212F, and solidifies when chilled below 32F.
Water can be supercooled if there's no seed crystal.
Originally Posted by y_p_w
Originally Posted by SirTanon
This just in: batteries lose efficiency when they are cold
In other news - water turns into steam when heated to 212F, and solidifies when chilled below 32F.
Water can be supercooled if there's no seed crystal.
Yes, I know.. or if the container is perfectly smooth (no nucleation point)... My entire response was basically sarcasm.
Originally Posted by SirTanon
This just in: batteries lose efficiency when they are cold
In other news - water turns into steam when heated to 212F, and solidifies when chilled below 32F.
Water can be supercooled if there's no seed crystal.
Yes, I know.. or if the container is perfectly smooth (no nucleation point)... My entire response was basically sarcasm.
The Leaf also has a heat pump since 2013 I believe
Thought for a second this was going to be about lunch meat.
Originally Posted by SirTanon
This just in: batteries lose efficiency when they are cold
Don't forget that they need to keep the battery warm, too. So even if the car is just sitting in the parking lot, it may be sucking power from the battery to keep it warm enough to not die.
This just in: batteries lose efficiency when they are cold
Don't forget that they need to keep the battery warm, too. So even if the car is just sitting in the parking lot, it may be sucking power from the battery to keep it warm enough to not die.
The ranges given are deceiving. In winter heating the cabin defrosting and so on burn power tremendously. Then you are faced with charging the car somewhere or calling a cab. Some people ride around freezing in electric only cars just because it ruins the range.
Originally Posted by SirTanon
... In other news - water turns into steam when heated to 212F, ...
Only if the pressure is about 14.7 psia.
... In other news - water turns into steam when heated to 212F, ...
Only if the pressure is about 14.7 psia.
Originally Posted by xBa380
... My 18' Camry SE Hybrid which should get 43/46, I am down to about 33-35 MPG. ... Any car I've driven before, even in winter, I would just be on the low end of the MPG range. Not 10 mpg under. ...
Don't fall for the fallacy of measuring consumption in mpg numbers. Dropping from 10 mpg from 44 to 34 doesn't cost as much in increased fuel consumption as dropping from (for example) 20 to 17.5. Dealing with winter requires extra energy to propel a car and heat it, regardless of the energy source.
... My 18' Camry SE Hybrid which should get 43/46, I am down to about 33-35 MPG. ... Any car I've driven before, even in winter, I would just be on the low end of the MPG range. Not 10 mpg under. ...
Don't fall for the fallacy of measuring consumption in mpg numbers. Dropping from 10 mpg from 44 to 34 doesn't cost as much in increased fuel consumption as dropping from (for example) 20 to 17.5. Dealing with winter requires extra energy to propel a car and heat it, regardless of the energy source.
Patman
Staff member
I don't think the reduced range is too much of a concern on an electric vehicle such as the Tesla or even the Chevy Bolt, both of which have a range that is typical of what most of it's users might use up in an entire week. So instead of being able to go 7 days on a charge, now they are only going 3-4 days on a charge in the winter. Yes, it'll cost you more money in the cold, but it's not really any more inconvenient.
For someone like me for instance, it wouldn't be a big deal as I only have about a 10 mile drive to work.
For someone like me for instance, it wouldn't be a big deal as I only have about a 10 mile drive to work.
Originally Posted by Patman
I don't think the reduced range is too much of a concern on an electric vehicle such as the Tesla or even the Chevy Bolt, both of which have a range that is typical of what most of it's users might use up in an entire week. So instead of being able to go 7 days on a charge, now they are only going 3-4 days on a charge in the winter. Yes, it'll cost you more money in the cold, but it's not really any more inconvenient.
For someone like me for instance, it wouldn't be a big deal as I only have about a 10 mile drive to work.
People usually charge it every night. It is constantly being topped off. They wouldn't go several days without plugging it in at home at night. Teslas and chevy Bolts have 200+ mile ranges, and getting topped off constantly means commutes are never a problem, even in the cold.
There is that rare 1% of commuters whose job is 100 miles away, and they would definitely have trouble with an electric car. For 99% of us, commutes are more reasonable. Even a 60 mile commute is no problem for these cars.
I don't think the reduced range is too much of a concern on an electric vehicle such as the Tesla or even the Chevy Bolt, both of which have a range that is typical of what most of it's users might use up in an entire week. So instead of being able to go 7 days on a charge, now they are only going 3-4 days on a charge in the winter. Yes, it'll cost you more money in the cold, but it's not really any more inconvenient.
For someone like me for instance, it wouldn't be a big deal as I only have about a 10 mile drive to work.
People usually charge it every night. It is constantly being topped off. They wouldn't go several days without plugging it in at home at night. Teslas and chevy Bolts have 200+ mile ranges, and getting topped off constantly means commutes are never a problem, even in the cold.
There is that rare 1% of commuters whose job is 100 miles away, and they would definitely have trouble with an electric car. For 99% of us, commutes are more reasonable. Even a 60 mile commute is no problem for these cars.
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