Clatter 2013 Lexus GS 450h

[HybridGuy]

Hello!

I have a problem with my 2013 Lexus GS 450h. It has a really loud clatter after the start up. First thing what might get in mind is the VVT-i system but this problem is a little bit bigger.

The garage changed the timing chain, because it was slightly stretched (including the three tensioners and guides). As the problem still persists they also changed the intake VVT-i and the oil control valves. But the problem is still here.

The thing is: when the car is started cold it makes this noise (when the car was warm before), when the car is started hot it sometimes makes the noise (depends on the time it was sitting). I assume it must have something to do with the oil viscosity, because when I start the car and shut it off (without letting it warm up) it does not make the noise with the next start-up (as the oil won’t bleed out when it is still thick). I am running out of ideas so I seek help with experienced people. Is this a know issue? Maybe somebody already had it?

 

[JohnnyG]

Sounds nasty. So much for Toyota engines. I doubt that it's oil related but seems to be easy to experiment with that idea.
My money would be on lifters. As in, before the lifters get oil pressure. Possibly oil pump or oil check valve related.

 

[paulo57509]

Have you kept up with oil/filter changes?

I'm leaning towards the VVTi system; something that relatively easy to check - the VVTi (oil control valves), there are filter screens in the oil passage that feed the solenoid that oft times become (partially) clogged. It appears these screens are accessible behind a plug without engine disassembly. Just make sure you replace the plug seal washer during reassembly.

 

[HybridGuy]

Sounds nasty. So much for Toyota engines. I doubt that it's oil related but seems to be easy to experiment with that idea.
My money would be on lifters. As in, before the lifters get oil pressure. Possibly oil pump or oil check valve related.

But wouldn’t lifters make more of a ticking noise? This noise only occurs for this short period and after at least one revolution. An unpressurized lifter should do this sound in the very first revolution, shouldn’t it?

Have you kept up with oil/filter changes?

I'm leaning towards the VVTi system; something that relatively easy to check - the VVTi (oil control valves), there are filter screens in the oil passage that feed the solenoid that oft times become (partially) clogged. It appears these screens are accessible behind a plug without engine disassembly. Just make sure you replace the plug seal washer during reassembly.

The car has 60k miles and has fully serviced by the dealership. The filters you’re talking about are inside the engine - on previous version there are the VVTi oil lines you can access from outside the engine. Here you can’t. At least on the 2GR-FXE. The filter is sitting above this “bridge” marked in the picture

 

[meep]

I’d be curious to know how quickly it builds oil pressure on cold start compared to other copies. Relatively easy enough on your own, but harder to borrow another and put a gauge on it. Are the oil passages somehow draining down and having to re-prime every start?

 

[Drifter]

Try the next weight oil up . Were the chain and tensioners Toyota or aftermarket ? Just a thought. Sounds like the tensioner building up pressure to me. My car does this as well. 3-5 seconds. Seems to get worse as the oil degrades.

 

[HybridGuy]

I’d be curious to know how quickly it builds oil pressure on cold start compared to other copies. Relatively easy enough on your own, but harder to borrow another and put a gauge on it. Are the oil passages somehow draining down and having to re-prime every start?

This is indeed doable on my car, but I don’t have a comparison. The GS 450h isn’t that common. Also it’s not only on cold starts - it also does it on warm/hot starts when the car sat for around 30 minutes. But it’s not as loud as a completely cold start.

The thing is: oil draining - I assume - is pretty normal, that’s why the intake actuator has a locking pin. The exhaust actuator has a spring to engage the locking pin. The primary chain tensioner is a ratchet type, which also shouldn’t be affected by the low oil pressure on startup.

Try the next weight oil up . Were the chain and tensioners Toyota or aftermarket ? Just a thought. Sounds like the tensioner building up pressure to me. My car does this as well. 3-5 seconds. Seems to get worse as the oil degrades.

All replaced parts are OEM parts. The oil and filter is new. For me it also sounds like the chain is slapping around. Wouldn’t the ratchet type chain tensioner prevent this?

 

[Exhaustgases]

Yup sounds like the normal VVT stuff. Some Honda's well known for that too.

 

[KrisZ]

It does sound like a bunch of marbles and then there is a short clattering sound, after that the engine sounds quiet.
I would tackle one thing at a time. Remove the engine cover and try to pin point that short lasting clatter sound.

 

[HybridGuy]

Yup sounds like the normal VVT stuff. Some Honda's well known for that too.

Yeah, but the VVTi stuff has been replaced.

It does sound like a bunch of marbles and then there is a short clattering sound, after that the engine sounds quiet.
I would tackle one thing at a time. Remove the engine cover and try to pin point that short lasting clatter sound.

The marbles sound at the beginning might be normal. But the clatter is very annoying, especially it sounds like a sound that can harm the engine.
I am already using a stethoscope to locate the sound - but it’s not easy, because the clatter is so loud that I can’t pinpoint a specific area. Hopefully I’ll find the area where it is insanely loud.

 

[brages]

On the Prius, a blown head gasket will cause clatter on startup - I think the engine has some kind of spring buffer to soften the start/stop of the engine. The coolant leaks into a cylinder or two, resulting in a brief misfire (which clatters due to the buffer) until the coolant clears.

No idea is the 450h is similar, though.

 

[meep]

Check valve from the oil pump? Leaky oil pressure relief valve on the oil pump?

Try a thicker oil?

Btw @HybridGuy, besides the rattle, how do you like the RX-H? One of these could be on my list for future consideration?

 

[Exhaustgases]

Yeah, but the VVTi stuff has been replaced.


The marbles sound at the beginning might be normal. But the clatter is very annoying, especially it sounds like a sound that can harm the engine.
I am already using a stethoscope to locate the sound - but it’s not easy, because the clatter is so loud that I can’t pinpoint a specific area. Hopefully I’ll find the area where it is insanely loud.

Like new parts are never as bad or worse that the old one it replaced?

 

[CharBaby]

Any time that I have experienced this start-up rattle in any engine(Honda, Mazda, Nissan, Toy/Lex), I changed the oil filter to something else. Even the filters with the silicone ADBV(on occasion) have caused this rattle.

 

[HybridGuy]

On the Prius, a blown head gasket will cause clatter on startup - I think the engine has some kind of spring buffer to soften the start/stop of the engine. The coolant leaks into a cylinder or two, resulting in a brief misfire (which clatters due to the buffer) until the coolant clears.

No idea is the 450h is similar, though.

I am not sure. The car doesn’t overheat and does not loose any coolant. Also in the oil there isn’t any coolant.

Check valve from the oil pump? Leaky oil pressure relief valve on the oil pump?

Try a thicker oil?

Btw @HybridGuy, besides the rattle, how do you like the RX-H? One of these could be on my list for future consideration?

I’ll check that. Can a faulty check valve cause such problems of too low oil pressure on start up?
On a hybrid they say that you should stick with the manufacturer oil weight - in that case 0W-20.

Regarding the RX: I like it, but I wanted a more sporty car. Beside that I think it’s a great car, especially a hybrid is interesting as you get very good fuel mileage and a good amount of power. Also Toyota/Lexus has decades of experience with hybrids other manufacturers started maybe five years ago, so when something goes wrong with the hybrid system I assume that especially Toyota/Lexus would be the least expensive and easiest to repair.

Like new parts are never as bad or worse that the old one it replaced?

Of course they can go be DOA. But as the same problem persists I am not sure if it is related to the new VVTi gears.

Any time that I have experienced this start-up rattle in any engine(Honda, Mazda, Nissan, Toy/Lex), I changed the oil filter to something else. Even the filters with the silicone ADBV(on occasion) have caused this rattle.

I’ll do that. But it has been done twice in like three months now - with original 0W-20 and OEM filter. No change at all.

 

[SatinSilver]

Where did you buy the OEM oil filters from?

 

[HybridGuy]

Where did you buy the OEM oil filters from?

Directly from the dealership.

 

[KrisZ]

I highly doubt the clatter is caused by the oil filter, since it comes on after few second of being started. Noises caused by loss of oil pressure are present the moment the engine is started.

Perhaps it’s from the accessory area? Maybe release the belt tension and start it cold without the belt working? At the very least it will eliminate that possible area.

 

[HybridGuy]

I highly doubt the clatter is caused by the oil filter, since it comes on after few second of being started. Noises caused by loss of oil pressure are present the moment the engine is started.

Perhaps it’s from the accessory area? Maybe release the belt tension and start it cold without the belt working? At the very least it will eliminate that possible area.

I’ll change the oil and filter again.

Regarding the accessory area: the only thing driven by the belt is the water pump. Climate and steering is electric. The noise doesn’t change with the belt off.

 

[meep]

On a hybrid they say that you should stick with the manufacturer oil weight - in that case 0W-20.

Totally legit thinking. I might try something like penzoil 5-30 synthetic as it is on the thinner side of a 5-30 while still giving some difference to just provide a data point.