Chrysler Engineer video on transmission lubricatio

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what are your thoughts on his statements about lubrication? This has been an ongoing debate on other forums rather or not to use ATF4 or motor oil in the trans.
 
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It just reiterated what I have believed since day one, that ATF is not the best fluid for a manual trans. It was only used as a cost saving measure to begin with.
 

hooligan24

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one thing that bugs me a little is, his profession isnt lubrication. I dont know whats in manual trans fluid compared to ATF, thats why I posted this here. I was kinda hoping the real professionals in lube would chime in on rather or not the zddp is needed or helpful compared to ATF4. there have been tranny failures, but I havent found a single incident that had proof it was ATF related. People just say Owell and send off their tranny to get rebuilt for 5k+ instead of finding out what went wrong. On the other side of the coin, there T850 trannys that have a couple hundred thousand miles on them using ATF4 without problems. I still plan to keep using my Redline C+, this is just curiousity.
 
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So you don't believe what he says about ATF being used as cost saving measure? I think I will continue to use MTF in my manual gearbox. Also being a powertrain design engineer, I suspect he has some knowledge of lubricants. Perhaps MolaKule will chime in on this.
 
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hooligan - How about what is LACKING in ATF for manual trannys? Like no or very little AW or EP additives, and not being friction modified for synchros! And add it's thinness for even more wear inducing problems compared to a dedicated manual trans fluid.
 

hooligan24

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Originally Posted By: mechtech2
hooligan - How about what is LACKING in ATF for manual trannys? Like no or very little AW or EP additives, and not being friction modified for synchros! And add it's thinness for even more wear inducing problems compared to a dedicated manual trans fluid.
this is the stuff I would like to know. I dont know whats in the fluids or what is needed for different types of transmissions.
 
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hooligan24

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Originally Posted By: TurboLuver
So you don't believe what he says about ATF being used as cost saving measure? I think I will continue to use MTF in my manual gearbox. Also being a powertrain design engineer, I suspect he has some knowledge of lubricants. Perhaps MolaKule will chime in on this.
me and you have talked about this before...lol im just having a hard time accepting that M1 high mileage 10w40 should be the only fluid used in our trans. Chrysler was the ones that warranteed our vehicles, so I would think that they wouldnt recommened a fluid that will cause failures. Granted, ATF4 might not be the best option, but it might not be bad either. I have talked with molakule also. He suggested that I try a 50/50 mix of ATF4 and MTL since my trans shifts great on ATF and notchy with thicker fluids. Dave at Redline has told me more than once, that C+ATF will be more than enough protection for the gears inside a manual trans.
 
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Originally Posted By: hooligan24
im just having a hard time accepting that M1 high mileage 10w40 should be the only fluid used in our trans.
I am not sold that M1 HM is the "only" fluid we should use either, although I think I would use it over ATF.
Originally Posted By: hooligan24
Chrysler was the ones that warranteed our vehicles, so I would think that they wouldnt recommened a fluid that will cause failures.
He said the ATF was a compromise, basically a fluid that would work, but not the best option. In my opinion Chrysler just wanted a fluid that would get them out of the warranty period. They did drop the warranty down to 3/36 too by the way.
Originally Posted By: hooligan24
I have talked with molakule also. He suggested that I try a 50/50 mix of ATF4 and MTL since my trans shifts great on ATF and notchy with thicker fluids.
That is pretty telling.
 
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A fact to consider is that most of the cars in question have been heavily modded and get punished on a regular basis. If everything stays stock, the trans and fluid will probably live a long happy life. Drag racing is one of the most punishing things you can do to a driveline.
 
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I think he is mainly talking about "Adequate" vs "Superior." ATF works. Other things work better. I was also interested in hearing him define the FM problem, something that we have argued long and hard about in the axle sections.
 
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Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
I think he is mainly talking about "Adequate" vs "Superior." ATF works. Other things work better.
I think you hit the nail on the head. When you think about how many gallons of ATF go into manual trannys at the factory vs how many gallons go into automatic trannies, it's no wonder why the OEM would go with an "adequate" lubricant instead of stocking two different lubricants. It also makes service easier at the dealership level.
 
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Originally Posted By: Sunnyinhollister
Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
I think he is mainly talking about "Adequate" vs "Superior." ATF works. Other things work better.
I think you hit the nail on the head. When you think about how many gallons of ATF go into manual trannys at the factory vs how many gallons go into automatic trannies, it's no wonder why the OEM would go with an "adequate" lubricant instead of stocking two different lubricants. It also makes service easier at the dealership level.
Exactly my point, it was not what was best for the tranny, rather, it was what was best for the bottom line. I want what is best for my trans.
 

hooligan24

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next question: My trans shifts smooth(not notchy) with C+ATF, will I still get less protection than I would if I had a notchy/grinding shifting transaxle that has MTL in it? I guess a better way to put it would be, should I stick with a smooth shifting trans on ATF or use a thicker MTL and live with the notchy shifting? which trans would last longer? I still have 9 quarts of MTL I picked up from a Viper race team a couple years ago. I just stopped using it due to [censored] shifting. If I remember right, Dave at Redline told me their ATF's carry the protection equivilent of GL4 or something along those lines.
 
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hooligan- Start checking MTL specs from various mfrs and comparing viscosity to the Viper stuff you got that didn't work and find one that's closest to ATF. There is a vast difference in MTLs out there. Find the best of both worlds!
 

hooligan24

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I have Redline MTL. I also tried RP syncromax, which has a viscosity close to ATF's. It made the trans shift worse than redline MTL C+ATF Vis @ 100°C, cSt 7.5 Vis @ 40°C, cSt 32.3 RP Syncromax cSt @ 100°C 7.7 cSt @ 40°C 38.0 Redline MTL Vis @ 100°C, cSt 10.6 Vis @ 40°C, cSt 56.2
 
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My 2002 F-150 with the 5 speed manual tranny called for ATF. It shifted horribly with ATF. The factory ATF Mercon was really bad. It was better but not good with Schaeffer's ATF. I went with RP SynchroMax and the shifting has been ok, no more grinding when shifting. Whimsey
 

hooligan24

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Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
Did you look at BG Synchroshift or the Amsoil product?
I have tried Amsoils universal ATF. shifting was great for the 1st few thousand miles, then deminished and got notchy after 5-6k miles. Amsoil Syncromesh was notchy from the get go. The Amsoil syncromesh was prbably 5 years ago when I tried it, the ATF was what I use to use before I found Redline C+ATF locally a couple years ago. I have never tried any BG fluids. I have 2 parts stores in my area that carry a wide variety of fluid choices like all the ones people on here gripe about not being able to find unless its ordered online. So they will most likely have it in stock.
 
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