CCSt Question???????

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I was looking at a lot of 10W30 oils with a CCS of [email protected] to -25. I just put in a Synthetic Blend 15W40 that is [email protected] Am I interpeting this right if I assume that it basicly pumps cold down to -15 just as well as a 10W30? I did see some 10W30 that were [email protected] so it would apear that 10W30 has quite a varriance? Thanks guys for corecting any erors in my thinking!
 
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John, I don't know what the exact requirement numbers are, but from your question yes, the 15-40 seems to actually pump better at -15 than the compared with 10-30 at -20 to -25.
 

JohnBrowning

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I am useing a product that I am not familar with in a semi-cold enviroment. I am not to impressed with the white papers for Syntec Blend 15W40. For $1 a quart though I am whileing to test it. I just wanted to make sure that it was going to perform at least as good as a run of the mill 10W30. Our winter is breaking and lows are not going to dip much colder the 20F-25F. THe product actuls says recomended for temps above 10 degrees on the side of the label. I checked all of this out before I decided to run it. I just wanted to double check to make sure I had not figured wrong. It has a HTHS of 4.00 but a NOAK of 13%. I also found out that Syntec 5W50 has a NOAK of 13% as well. SO far I can definately tell that it is not Redline 5W40 in the sump! I am only going to test this oil 3000-4000 miles. THe Syntec Blend 15W40 only has a TBN of 5. That is just insanely low! This oil has CI4 and SL rateings so it should perform well! I wanted to have a dino run to test as a reference for all the synthetics I am going to be testing. If the TBN was higher I would go 5000-6000 miles. A TBN of 5 though is just scary! I assumed it would have a TBN of 12-13 like all the other 15W40 I have used. Linve and learn! [ March 07, 2004, 10:08 PM: Message edited by: JohnBrowning ]
 
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CCS (Cold Cranking Simulator) has no relevance to cold "pumping" performance. CCS defines this in ASTM D-5293. To accurately measure cold "pumping" you must run the ASTM D-4684 test, known as the MRV (Mini Rotary Viscometer). The MRV has an absolute limit of 60,000 cP, beyond which you will experience Yield Stress and the oil cannot slump. What happens then is the oil pump can no longer draw oil into the oil pickup, so the pump cavitates. Remember that the MRV BPT (Mini Rotary Viscometer Borderline Pumping Temperature) is at the absolute yield stress of 60,000 cP. Some motors may be much more sensitive to low temp MRV and may require an oil with much lower MRV values. As an example, my 2000 GMC Sierra with 5.3 litre Vortec V8 seems to like Mobil 1 0W-30 in winter. Otherwise I have CLACK CLACK CLACK noises below -18 C or 0 F. As another example, a HD diesel motor like a Caterpillar has a recommended 15W-40 cutoff of -9.5 C or +15 F. According to Esso Canada, their Esso XD-3 15W-40 has a recommended lowest temp use of -20 C or -4 F. This is an absolute and you in all cases must follow the engine manufacturer recommendation, as Cat, Cummins, etc, all have much more conservative cutoff temps. In most cases, an oil can "pass" the CCS test and fail the MRV test. You must examine MRV values to determine if suitable. Jerry
 
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A quick question: How can a CI-4 rated oil only have a TBN of 5?? Most of the CI-4 oils I have seen have TBN's of 11-12. A TBN of 5 is like a PCEO. I'm not sure I would try an extended OCI. Jerry
 
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quote:
Originally posted by JohnBrowning: I was looking at a lot of 10W30 oils with a CCS of [email protected] to -25. I did see some 10W30 that were [email protected] so it would apear that 10W30 has quite a varriance?
Go back to where you saw the data and three letters often missed are " MAX " as in 7000 max . Any multi viscosity dino will be far less than 7k . As an example the Phillips Trop Artic 5w-30 is 4650 . Pennzoil does this along with others and it confusing to some degree .
 

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You can only compare CCS numbers at the same temperature. At the temperatures that the CCS test is measured, dynamic viscosity almost doubles or halves for each 5 deg C change in temperature. That is, a mineral oil with a CCV of 3500cp at -25C will have a CCV of about 7000cp at -30C. A synthetic will change by a factor of 1.6 to 1.8 over the same temp range.
 
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Originally posted by TallPaul: heyjay: I'm hoping to get your opinion/advice on the following oil for winter use in the Detroit area. I rarely get below zero F around here. I would be running it in my '95 Ford 300 straight six that has been running 10w40 all winter. The oil is Valvoline Durablend 15w40 (PCEO) and the cold properties are: pour: -36C CCS cP: 5700 @-20C MRV TP-1 cP: 17000 @-25C In comparison, the Valvo Maxlife 10w40 I was running is: pour: -36C CCS cP: 7000 @-25C MRV TP-1 cP: 21000 @-30C Hard to compare with the different temps of measurement [Frown] BTW, are there other 15w40 PCEOs or is Valvo Dura the only one? Thanks, Paul
Hello Paul: Remember that "pour point" has no relevance at all to cold flow. I'm not even sure why they list it. Based on the limited values you had access to, I would guess the two oils are comparable. I've never seen a PCEO in 15W-40. Only HDEO in 15W-40. To compare your values, let's contrast several Esso XD-3 HDEO and some limited data I have about the CI-4 Mobil Delvac 1 5W-40: CCS: Esso XD-3 15W-40 6,500 cP @ -20 C Esso XD-3 0W-30 5,900 cP @ -35 C Esso XD-3 0W-40 5,900 cP @ -35 C Mobil Delvac 1 5W-40 6,100 cP @ -30 C Valvoline Durablend 15W-40 5,700 cP @ -20 C Valvoline MaxLife 10W-40 7,000 cP @ -25 C MRV: Esso XD-3 15W-40 33,000 cP @ -25 C Esso XD-3 0W-30 11,200 cP @ -35 C Esso XD-3 0W-40 14,900 cP @ -35 C Mobil Delvac 1 5W-40 32,000 cP @ -35 C Valvoline Durablend 15W-40 17,000 cP @ -25 C Valvoline MaxLife 10W-40 21,000 cP @ -30 C As you can see, although the CCS values are quite close for Esso XD-3 0W-30 / 0W-40 and Delvac 1, the MRV values are quite different at the same test temp. Comparing Esso XD-3 0W-30 to Delvac 1 represents 1/3 the flow resistance. That said, I also know of folks running the 300 I-6 with heavier oils in winter no problem. Do you have a good mechanical oil pressure gauge? Check to see how quickly you build oil pressure. Any unusual noises? Especially KNOCK KNOCK KNOCK or CLACK CLACK CLACK? If you don't have noises, and don't feel that you "might" have a fuel economy issue (Which I doubt), then carry on. Hope this helps. Jerry
 

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Well the proof is in the pudding. It was about 20F this morning and their was no pumping or cranking issue at all! It turned over just fine and no valve train noise at all! If it was delvac I was useing I would not have had any concerns. I am always a bit leary of anything I have not tried before or tested! The spec.s for this Castrol Syntec Blend Truck and SUV oil 15W40 is not very impressive! It seems to funtion just fine so far. It is quite and smooth. I have no idea why it has such a low TBN. I belive the spec.'s I read were compiled by Amsoil site. I got the information from a site Motorbike posted! This oil will be out at 3000-4000 miles. I am woundering though how much moly is going to be left behind by the Redline 5W40 I had in it. Even though it has a HTHS spec. of 4.00 I suspect that this oi is going to show signs of shearing even at a low OCI of 3000-4000 miles!
 
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heyjay: I'm hoping to get your opinion/advice on the following oil for winter use in the Detroit area. I rarely get below zero F around here. I would be running it in my '95 Ford 300 straight six that has been running 10w40 all winter. The oil is Valvoline Durablend 15w40 (PCEO) and the cold properties are: pour: -36C CCS cP: 5700 @-20C MRV TP-1 cP: 17000 @-25C In comparison, the Valvo Maxlife 10w40 I was running is: pour: -36C CCS cP: 7000 @-25C MRV TP-1 cP: 21000 @-30C Hard to compare with the different temps of measurement [Frown] BTW, are there other 15w40 PCEOs or is Valvo Dura the only one? Thanks, Paul
 
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Jerry, Thank you very much. I will have to remember to de-emphasize pour point and focus on MRV. You mention limited values I had access to, so I guess there are other parameters important to cold flow, perhaps sulfated ash, which is listed as 1.0 on Durablend 15w40. I say Durablend 15w40 is a PCEO because it is listed as such on their site and has PCEO phosphorus levels (0.096) and a base number of 8. Had to go to a NAPA store to find this oil. Most places don't carry it. Good point, on thicker oils in 300 sixes. I certainly can try this (or some other brand) 15w40 next winter. One or two times of startup noise is not going to kill the engine. Besides, at home I have an oil pan heater for the cold morning starts. I had (experimentally) a mix of four quarts 5w30 and 2 quarts 20w50 in the ol' 300 six last fall when I had some startup noise on a cold day in mid-December after it had sat for nearly 36 hours. Made me think that the 20w part of my mix was not so good (probably jacked up the MRV). I have an AutoGauge (by AutoMeter) mechanical pressure gauge. I was an oil nut before, but this gauge (after years of an idiot dash gauge) really sent me off the deep end. With the 10w40 I think the worst was about a 10F afternoon where it took about 2 - 3 seconds for the needle to leave zero, but no bad noises. What's fuel economy? My motorhome gets 8 mpg on a good day (460 V8). [Frown] Your comments (here and in other posts) are definitely useful to me. I'll be pulling out all my tech data sheets and looking up MRVs for a couple days now. [ March 09, 2004, 01:28 AM: Message edited by: TallPaul ]
 
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Paul: Sounds like your I6 300 seems to like the heavier oil. Absolutely I would call the Autometer gauge a "good" gauge. In my 1984 Ford, I replaced the Stewart Warner mechanical gauges I put in back in 1984 with Autometer Pro Comp. Expensive but VERY nice. "TP1" just refers to the Test Point temp they used for the MRV. Jerry
 
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quote:
Originally posted by heyjay: CCS: Esso XD-3 15W-40 6,500 cP @ -20 C Esso XD-3 0W-30 5,900 cP @ -35 C Esso XD-3 0W-40 5,900 cP @ -35 C Mobil Delvac 1 5W-40 6,100 cP @ -30 C Valvoline Durablend 15W-40 5,700 cP @ -20 C Valvoline MaxLife 10W-40 7,000 cP @ -25 C MRV: Esso XD-3 15W-40 33,000 cP @ -25 C Esso XD-3 0W-30 11,200 cP @ -35 C Esso XD-3 0W-40 14,900 cP @ -35 C Mobil Delvac 1 5W-40 32,000 cP @ -35 C Valvoline Durablend 15W-40 17,000 cP @ -25 C Valvoline MaxLife 10W-40 21,000 cP @ -30 C
This is exactly why I'll be running the XD-3 0w40 in my 6.0 Powerstroke Diesel next winter. [Canada]
 
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