Castrol : Synthetic Oil Quality Shipped to USA ?

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I feel that Castrol lowered the bar and promoted the myth that Gp 3 is synthetic. I know everyone followed suit to compete and it may be illogical to boycott them but just like the guy that got 1 lemon Ford, Chevy, Dodge swears he will never buy that brand again I chose to swear off Castrol.
 
Originally Posted by 4WD
Oil cult stuff you read here - Magnatec oxidized in just over 3k for me - bet you it's not even all GrpIII

Seems folks agree to not running oil too long in the ecoboost - so if that's the case many brands work
(I only ran 5k in my 3.5L)


+1 I agree with 4WD.
 
Originally Posted by samven
I feel that Castrol lowered the bar and promoted the myth that Gp 3 is synthetic.

Myth?

As far as I know, there is no official definition of 'synthetic oil' that would exclude group 3.
 
Ahhh yes same people that bought into the "magnatec" and that there was this magical additive that magically bonds to metals and adds all this extra protection, buy into that....but think a additive like Archoil or other top tier additives are all snake oil and do nothing, but yet buy into the magical magnatec additive. Like I Have always stated, these companies are in the business to make money, they slap this moniker of "magnatec" and people say it's legit. But if someone puts or uses a quality additive, all of a sudden you are ruining the oil and it's all snake oil....because you know it was so good the oil companies would be putting it in their oil. But slap "magnatec" on a bottle and people flock to it, but only when it's on sale or rebate etc etc. You think Castrol spent all this money on R&D to discover this magical "magnatec" molecule when people penny pinch this oil thing to death. They do the bare minimum to meet specs and some companies actually develop certain oils in their lineup and add some extra additives to cater to those people, and to meet their claims. Such as Mobil esp, etc. Again, this is aimed at higher end additives....not slick 50 jokes out there. I'll take my chances and add 5oz or 6 oz of archoil and have been for years, more of a chance I'm adding something these days that oil companies seem to be removing from their oil, than people claiming I am ruining my oil......the oil companies know best, and that it would be in the oil already if it was so good. Like I stated everyone wants to penny pinch when it comes to oil, from individuals right to dealers. If these companies can mark their "quality" down to 2 dollars a quart, where they going to make all this profit when they would have to use more additives.

I'm about to get a oil analysis for first time ever, RGT with archoil, so I guess I'll find out just how much I have been damaging my engines all these years lol.
 
Originally Posted by domer10
Ahhh yes same people that bought into the "magnatec" and that there was this magical additive that magically bonds to metals and adds all this extra protection, buy into that....but think a additive like Archoil or other top tier additives are all snake oil and do nothing, but yet buy into the magical magnatec additive. Like I Have always stated, these companies are in the business to make money, they slap this moniker of "magnatec" and people say it's legit. But if someone puts or uses a quality additive, all of a sudden you are ruining the oil and it's all snake oil....because you know it was so good the oil companies would be putting it in their oil. But slap "magnatec" on a bottle and people flock to it, but only when it's on sale or rebate etc etc. You think Castrol spent all this money on R&D to discover this magical "magnatec" molecule when people penny pinch this oil thing to death. They do the bare minimum to meet specs and some companies actually develop certain oils in their lineup and add some extra additives to cater to those people, and to meet their claims. Such as Mobil esp, etc. Again, this is aimed at higher end additives....not slick 50 jokes out there. I'll take my chances and add 5oz or 6 oz of archoil and have been for years, more of a chance I'm adding something these days that oil companies seem to be removing from their oil, than people claiming I am ruining my oil......the oil companies know best, and that it would be in the oil already if it was so good. Like I stated everyone wants to penny pinch when it comes to oil, from individuals right to dealers. If these companies can mark their "quality" down to 2 dollars a quart, where they going to make all this profit when they would have to use more additives.

I'm about to get a oil analysis for first time ever, RGT with archoil, so I guess I'll find out just how much I have been damaging my engines all these years lol.


What section of the UOA tells you that?
 
Originally Posted by domer10
Ahhh yes same people that bought into the "magnatec" and that there was this magical additive that magically bonds to metals and adds all this extra protection, buy into that....but think a additive like Archoil or other top tier additives are all snake oil and do nothing, but yet buy into the magical magnatec additive. Like I Have always stated, these companies are in the business to make money, they slap this moniker of "magnatec" and people say it's legit. But if someone puts or uses a quality additive, all of a sudden you are ruining the oil and it's all snake oil....because you know it was so good the oil companies would be putting it in their oil. But slap "magnatec" on a bottle and people flock to it, but only when it's on sale or rebate etc etc. You think Castrol spent all this money on R&D to discover this magical "magnatec" molecule when people penny pinch this oil thing to death. They do the bare minimum to meet specs and some companies actually develop certain oils in their lineup and add some extra additives to cater to those people, and to meet their claims. Such as Mobil esp, etc. Again, this is aimed at higher end additives....not slick 50 jokes out there. I'll take my chances and add 5oz or 6 oz of archoil and have been for years, more of a chance I'm adding something these days that oil companies seem to be removing from their oil, than people claiming I am ruining my oil......the oil companies know best, and that it would be in the oil already if it was so good. Like I stated everyone wants to penny pinch when it comes to oil, from individuals right to dealers. If these companies can mark their "quality" down to 2 dollars a quart, where they going to make all this profit when they would have to use more additives.

I'm about to get a oil analysis for first time ever, RGT with archoil, so I guess I'll find out just how much I have been damaging my engines all these years lol.

You lost me
crazy2.gif
but whatever you're doing/going on about, I hope it works out for ya. ðŸ‘
 
Originally Posted by buster
Castrol's marketing approach has never been too focused on base oils used or specific product data sheet figures. They tend to shy away from that, and that is ok. You can get caught up in a meaningless numbers game sometimes and go down an endless rabbit hole. Currently Castrol's emphasis is on their proprietary Ti additive and Magnatec chemistry, which is quite good and unique.

I've always thought Castrol's marketing word "magnatec" is a loose play on the word "magnetic" in that what they're attempting to convey (in consumer friendly language) are the benefits of/use of the polar chemistry of AW/EP additives? The avg consumer has no idea what moly or Ti does in a lube so you can't just slap on the label "Includes Titanium", instead Castrol created this marketing term "magnatec" that "binds" to metal. It's not a magical element, Castrol just came up with a novel way to promote/market it's polar AW chemistry to help sell it's products.
 
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In that case let's address the Pennzoil hype of calling their base stock PurePlus and claiming
Quote
Made from natural gas, not crude oil. So our oil is crystal clear with fewer of the impurities found in crude oil.


Oh, really? Crystal clear like maybe, delicious Poland Springs spring water. So colorless, odorless natural gas is cleaner than the black bubbling crude that bubble up from Jed Clampett's back yard. Gee, you don't say. So what if it is? Neither of those things goes in my engine. The stuff that goes into jugs is highly refined witches brew no matter who is selling it. Talk about manipulating facile minds with marketing fluff.
 
Originally Posted by wdn
In that case let's address the Pennzoil hype of calling their base stock PurePlus and claiming
Quote
Made from natural gas, not crude oil. So our oil is crystal clear with fewer of the impurities found in crude oil.


Oh, really? Crystal clear like maybe, delicious Poland Springs spring water. So colorless, odorless natural gas is cleaner than the black bubbling crude that bubble up from Jed Clampett's back yard. Gee, you don't say. So what if it is? Neither of those things goes in my engine. The stuff that goes into jugs is highly refined witches brew no matter who is selling it. Talk about manipulating facile minds with marketing fluff.

Actually, highly refined grp2 and 3 base oils are clear. It's the additives that gives it the colour. And GTL is virtually void of impurities. So they're not lying.
 
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Everyone's highly refined oils are highly refined oils. Exactly. That's what makes it PZ marketing hype.
 
Originally Posted by wdn
Other than PZ practically accusing its competitors of being full of vile contaminants, name any spec they meet that others, including Castrol, cannnot. There is none. Value per dollar? OK now we are playing the pricing game, but that is a game that changes constantly. Castrol EDGE EP was selling for $16 a jug last week. That is their top shelf oil. As soon as you are married to one particular brand you will never consistently get best value for dollar. You will just pay the loyalty tax for ‘your' brand that doesn't love you back, instead of shopping the best deals.


What's your point, Bernie? Why you getting all upset? Sure, you may be right (benefit of doubt), but this is still a free country, and there is still more than one brand of oil on the shelf. So regardless of your histrionics, people will still vote with their wallet. And in my world, a loyalty tax is preferable since I still personally get to decide where that money is going!
 
Originally Posted by kschachn
But Group III base stocks whether GTL or not are not "highly refined". They are hydro cracked.

You're right and poor choice of terminology on my part. I should have said severely treated and not highly refined, with respect to base oils. Good catch..
 
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Originally Posted by wdn
Other than PZ practically accusing its competitors of being full of vile contaminants, name any spec they meet that others, including Castrol, cannnot. There is none. Value per dollar? OK now we are playing the pricing game, but that is a game that changes constantly. Castrol EDGE EP was selling for $16 a jug last week. That is their top shelf oil. As soon as you are married to one particular brand you will never consistently get best value for dollar. You will just pay the loyalty tax for ‘your' brand that doesn't love you back, instead of shopping the best deals.

I'm reluctant to wade into your rant but I think you're poo pooing the question of purity. What's in the base oil or maybe more accurately what's not, is actually a big deal. It's what gives the oil it's performance characteristics like pour point, solvency, viscosity index etc. It can literally be the difference between a high quality finished lube and a poor/low quality one.
 
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Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter
Originally Posted by kschachn
But Group III base stocks whether GTL or not are not "highly refined". They are hydro cracked.
You're right and poor choice of terminology on my part. I should have said severely treated and not highly refined, with respect to base oils. Good catch..

There is no difference whatsoever between API Group II and Group III in terms of how they are produced (refined, hydroprocessed, hydrocracked, etc.). The same plants and machines are used to produce both. The only difference is the viscosity index (VI) of the product, which has to do with the severity of the process. The claim by the professor during the Castrol - Mobil 1 wars that Group III is a different, more synthetic process is false, as VI = 120 border between Group II and Group III is arbitrarily chosen.

GTL uses natural-gas-derived wax vs. traditional Group III using petroleum-derived slack wax. GTL has a higher VI, which also implies other properties being better, as VI is the primary measure of the quality of the hydrocarbon-derived base stocks.
 
Originally Posted by Gokhan
There is no difference whatsoever between API Group II and Group III in terms of how they are produced (refined, hydroprocessed, hydrocracked, etc.). The same plants and machines are used to produce both.

I don't believe I said there was. The only thing I believe I was addressing was the choice of terms "highly refined" in reference to grp3's. While I regularly read articles where the term "highly refined" or "more refined" is used w/respect to grp3's, in retrospect I thought a better, more accurate term would be "severely treated" owing to the severity of the application of temperatures/pressures that yields a higher quality, grp3, base oil. So yes..same equipment, same process. No argument out of me there.

I'm not gonna touch the "what is a synthetic?" topic, mainly because you nor I are going to change our position so it's a waste of time to debate it.
 
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Hilarious defense of marketing blather when it's "thy own ox" that is being gored.

Again it is specs. Motor oil specs exist, in abundance. Even OEM specific specs like Dexos. Does the motor oil meet the spec or not? Can anyone demonstrate the Castrol product does not meet any of the specs OP's other brands meet? No, you cannot.
 
Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter
Originally Posted by Gokhan
There is no difference whatsoever between API Group II and Group III in terms of how they are produced (refined, hydroprocessed, hydrocracked, etc.). The same plants and machines are used to produce both.
I don't believe I said there was. The only thing I believe I was addressing was the choice of terms "highly refined" in reference to grp3's. While I regularly read articles where the term "highly refined" or "more refined" is used w/respect to grp3's, in retrospect I thought a better, more accurate term would be "severely treated" owing to the severity of the application of temperatures/pressures that yields a higher quality, grp3, base oil. So yes..same equipment, same process. No argument out of me there.

I'm not gonna touch the "what is a synthetic?" topic, mainly because you nor I are going to change our position so it's a waste of time to debate it.

Yes, the correct terminology would be "severely" hydroprocessed, but the word severely is not always used. Moreover, we still have the legitimate question of how severe.

Group II+ base stocks have VI = 115 - 119. Group III+ base stocks have VI ⥠130. GTL base stocks have VI ~ 135 - 145. VI is proportional to the inverse of Noack × CCS.

Chevron Group II and Group II+ base stocks (PDF)
SK Lubricants Yubase Group III and Group III+ base stocks


I don't even know your position on the issue.

My position is that the use of word synthetic is somewhat arbitrary, and if they don't tell me the viscosity index (VI) of the base oil, the only thing it means is whether it's 119 and below or 120 and above, which is a very rough description.

This is the formulators'/blenders' take on the issue:

They don't care whether it's Group II/II+/III/III+/GTL/PAO. The only thing they care is if the base oil can meet the Noack for a given xW range and industry/OEM spec. For example it's hard to formulate a 0W-20 with 15% Noack without at least some Group III, as the Noack for the 4 cSt Group II+ base stock is 16%.

The million-dollar question is whether synthetic oils perform better than conventional oils (such as capable of longer OCIs) of the same industry/OEM spec. AAA did that study, and the answer was that there is a trend that they do, but this is not always the case with every oil.

AAA spills the truth on oil changes

[Linked Image from lh3.googleusercontent.com]

[Linked Image from lh3.googleusercontent.com]


My take: The word synthetic doesn't mean much to me unless I know that the the VI of the base oil is above 125 - 130, not just barely clearing 120. You know that Pennzoil Platinum is a top synthetic because it uses GTL. Likewise Mobil 1 uses at least some GTL and/or PAO in most of their synthetics according to the MSDSs. Valvoline Advanced Synthetic seems to use Group III+ according to its low Noack and low VII content. In those case you know you're getting a good oil for your buck. Castrol Edge ILSAC (US) oils are more promiscuous with their base oils than their competitors, and while sometimes you may get a high-grade synthetic, at some other times you may be getting a low-grade synthetic with a base-oil VI just above 120, which borders a conventional Group II+; therefore, check the Noack and CCS data if available to make sure.
 
Originally Posted by Gokhan

My take: The word synthetic doesn't mean much to me unless I know that the the VI of the base oil is above 125 - 130, not just barely clearing 120. You know that Pennzoil Platinum is a top synthetic because it uses GTL. Likewise Mobil 1 uses at least some GTL and/or PAO in most of their synthetics according to the MSDSs. Valvoline Advanced Synthetic seems to use Group III+ according to its low Noack and low VII content. In those case you know you're getting a good oil for your buck. Castrol Edge ILSAC (US) oils are more promiscuous with their base oils than their competitors, and while sometimes you may get a high-grade synthetic, at some other times you may be getting a low-grade synthetic with a base-oil VI just above 120, which borders a conventional Group II+; therefore, check the Noack and CCS data if available to make sure.

Since you added more context, I would say that you and my take align more than not. I made an [incorrect] assumption. No doubt GTL is a high quality product and lumping it in with a 120 VI grp3 does it no justice so there's a case to be made for upping the threshold but that's not likely to happen anytime soon. All the more reason for the API to maybe officially recognize "grp2+" and in particular "grp3+" base oils. I think maybe in the case of Castrol/BP they play more fast and loose with the BOI/BOS than some of the others?
Could be a supply chain issue/thingy in the N.A. market that contributes to this and not some nefarious or unscrupulous motive? This might explain a lot, no?
 
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