Patman
Staff member
If you want to get your oil sampled, here is the best deal going right here:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/terry.html
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/terry.html
Castrol Syntec 5-50
- Thread starter MolaKule
- Start date
- Status
I'd be very interested in seeing that analysis. If a 5W30 synthetic thins out, I can only imagine what a 5W50 must do.
I'm one of the folks that believes in using thicker oils than 10w/30.
Far as I'm concerned 0w/xx,5w/20 and 5w/30 is great for someone who cranks a vehicle in -20F weather, anyone who cranks up in warmer temps needs more oil.Years ago manufactures used oils like 10w/40 and 20w/50 because it protects engines the best, any other concerns( CAFE) were secondary. Manufacturers recommended the 3k oil change because 10w/40 DOES use alot of VI and needs to be replaced fairly often (0w/5w does too), 20w/50 does not use much VI, but is better for warmer temps (and engines with a few miles on them) than it is for very cold mornings.
These days the primary driving force for the manufacturers is CAFE, engine manufacturing procedures have better process control these days which would give less tolerance deviation than before, but the oil holes/bearing clearances are still the same, just less deviation from the design specifications than in years past.
I would always use mfgrs oil recommendations while under warranty, just to make sure they don't try to use anything like that against you if you ever have a catastrophic event during warranty.
But after the engine has some "maturity", I'd be looking out more for the engine than for the mfgrs CAFE ratings.
Viscosity improvers is probably the #1 reason that oils need changing, definitely the #1 weak point due to temperature and physical stress, so the less VI the better is true, but that extra viscosity has merit too. Everyone says that "IT PUMPS SLOWER...", well it also "RUNS SLOWER" as well, and when it's really hot, that running slower comes in pretty helpfull. The extra viscosity "resistance to flow" is keeping the oil between the metal longer too, you may notice .5 mpg reduction...maybe....but depending on what your priority is, it protects metal better.
Believe me, you want the vehicle to last 200k miles more than the mfgr does.
Far as I'm concerned 0w/xx,5w/20 and 5w/30 is great for someone who cranks a vehicle in -20F weather, anyone who cranks up in warmer temps needs more oil.Years ago manufactures used oils like 10w/40 and 20w/50 because it protects engines the best, any other concerns( CAFE) were secondary. Manufacturers recommended the 3k oil change because 10w/40 DOES use alot of VI and needs to be replaced fairly often (0w/5w does too), 20w/50 does not use much VI, but is better for warmer temps (and engines with a few miles on them) than it is for very cold mornings.
These days the primary driving force for the manufacturers is CAFE, engine manufacturing procedures have better process control these days which would give less tolerance deviation than before, but the oil holes/bearing clearances are still the same, just less deviation from the design specifications than in years past.
I would always use mfgrs oil recommendations while under warranty, just to make sure they don't try to use anything like that against you if you ever have a catastrophic event during warranty.
But after the engine has some "maturity", I'd be looking out more for the engine than for the mfgrs CAFE ratings.
Viscosity improvers is probably the #1 reason that oils need changing, definitely the #1 weak point due to temperature and physical stress, so the less VI the better is true, but that extra viscosity has merit too. Everyone says that "IT PUMPS SLOWER...", well it also "RUNS SLOWER" as well, and when it's really hot, that running slower comes in pretty helpfull. The extra viscosity "resistance to flow" is keeping the oil between the metal longer too, you may notice .5 mpg reduction...maybe....but depending on what your priority is, it protects metal better.
Believe me, you want the vehicle to last 200k miles more than the mfgr does.
Question-- Honda's use of 5W20 was done just to get them past increased CAFE standards, right?
Doesn't Honda's excellent efficiency mean that their product mix for mileage is one of the best and far over acceptable CAFE standards.
I could certainly see that reasoning behind Ford's decision to go with 5W20, but Honda?
BTW-- Personally I use 10W30 and agree with the addage about too much VI being a bad thing.
Doesn't Honda's excellent efficiency mean that their product mix for mileage is one of the best and far over acceptable CAFE standards.
I could certainly see that reasoning behind Ford's decision to go with 5W20, but Honda?
BTW-- Personally I use 10W30 and agree with the addage about too much VI being a bad thing.
No, I don't think Honda's switch to 5w-20 was "just" to meet CAFE, but to be able to put a higher gas mileage number on the sticker, anticipate tougher efficiency requirements, and market their cars as safer for the environment, etc. My point is that the decision has precious little to do with engine longevity.
What exactly are they "on to"? Have they put thinner and thicker viscosity oils in identical engines and run them to 200,000 miles and then torn them down? You could probably run sewing machine oil in your engine and reap fantastic power and efficiency gains, until it wore out.
I'm not saying thicker oil is always the best for every engine. I'm just saying the same is true for thinner oils: they're not always the best for every engine, REGARDLESS of what the owner's manual says. The thinner oil may be fine in the engine -- for 160,000 miles. Thicker oil might get you farther, but at the cost of fuel economy and performance. *WHY* don't they recommend thicker oils? Does the owner's manual outline the specific reasons? Because it will void your warranty? That's not a reason, that's a consequence for not sticking to their guidelines, which I assert have likely been set for reasons not exclusive to engine life. Could an oil that's too thick ruin your engine? Sure. All I'm saying is that just because the automakers tell you not to use a thicker oil doesn't always mean you can't. I had an entire Saturn tech crew affirm for me that I could run a 10w-40 or even the dreaded 5w-50 in my little four-banger to help curb oil consumption. If I did that and my engine stopped running would they fix it for free? Of course not. When under warranty, stick with the recommendation. (That's "recommendation," by the way not "requirement." My Saturn owner's manual also states that they don't "recommend" synthetic oil. Does that mean I can't use it?) Sure the owner's manual says 5w-30, but the owner's manual also tells me to shift when the little shift light comes on on the instrument cluster, and I don't do that either. They tell me not to put antiseize on my lugs when I put the wheels on, and I do that anyway. (Never lost a wheel yet, and I've been driving for quite a while!) They're not just about looking out for you, the car owner. They're also about covering their own butts.
Patman
Staff member
Good points Kevin! But I guess we'll never really know for sure if the car makers have fully tested different oils in their engines and found problems with one viscosity or another. Which is probably an even bigger reason to stick with the common viscosities, since I don't think any engine would be damaged by running 10w30, but I do believe the thicker stuff has the possibility of causing problems.
Hey Rando, nice to see you here. I saw a post from you before explaining your Blazer's bearing failure a little more and was going to respond but I never got around to it.
I've tried to go back to Edmunds (and other boards I used to frequent) to get caught up but I just don't seem to have the time anymore.
I too am mistrustful of the wide-spread oils and their reliance on fairly unstable viscosity improvers ... compounds that don't necessarily have any lubricating ability of their own. For high-heat conditions, I prefer 10W30 and even 15W40 oils.
BUT, having said that, I've seen some good results with Mobil 1 0W40 and usually just run 5W30 in my little ride, even in the summer months and sustained 90F+ temps. Go figure.
I've tried to go back to Edmunds (and other boards I used to frequent) to get caught up but I just don't seem to have the time anymore.
I too am mistrustful of the wide-spread oils and their reliance on fairly unstable viscosity improvers ... compounds that don't necessarily have any lubricating ability of their own. For high-heat conditions, I prefer 10W30 and even 15W40 oils.
BUT, having said that, I've seen some good results with Mobil 1 0W40 and usually just run 5W30 in my little ride, even in the summer months and sustained 90F+ temps. Go figure.
Oh, and for the record, all evidence I have suggests that the thinner oils are strictly for greater fuel economy ... at the expense of wear.
Yes, some testing suggests that the thinner oils will get the job done ... but I suspect that this is BARELY the case. Those of us that want our engines to run really well for 200,000+ miles should use something better/thicker.
Yes, some testing suggests that the thinner oils will get the job done ... but I suspect that this is BARELY the case. Those of us that want our engines to run really well for 200,000+ miles should use something better/thicker.
Hey Bror,
Thought you dropped off the face of the earth or somethin! Good to see you back.Happy motorin!
Thought you dropped off the face of the earth or somethin! Good to see you back.Happy motorin!
For whatever reason, I like to stick with what the manufacturer says until it consumes oil. My 4.0 Ranger Supercab still runs fine on Chevron 5w30 at 70,000 miles, only down about 4 oz at 4k changes. It regularly hauls 1500 lbs over dirt roads at 100 F temps. Some day I'll probably shift it to 15w40, but for now it stays with the Ford recommendation.
I believe a lot of the idea of staying away from 20w50 is that if it oxidizes, it is in the SAE 60 range or more.
Remember that the Oil company plays a game with VI improvers that will degrade at the rate that the average engine oxidizes the oil. Degrade too fast and you lose visc. degrade too slow and it increases. A lot of farm and mining equipment is air cooled and can easily increase in visc. from change to change, or shorten the interval. Some engines shear more than others. I have a cust. with Group I 15w40 in 180 pieces of equipment. All are at 400 hrs for change except 4 Nissans that shear down to 30 at 320 hours, and 4 Deutz that Oxidize to 50 at about 300 hours. (5 consecutive changes analized) The next change will be to Delo 400 to see the difference.So until you know how your engine behaves with your favorite oil, best to stick with what the manuf. says.
I believe a lot of the idea of staying away from 20w50 is that if it oxidizes, it is in the SAE 60 range or more.
Remember that the Oil company plays a game with VI improvers that will degrade at the rate that the average engine oxidizes the oil. Degrade too fast and you lose visc. degrade too slow and it increases. A lot of farm and mining equipment is air cooled and can easily increase in visc. from change to change, or shorten the interval. Some engines shear more than others. I have a cust. with Group I 15w40 in 180 pieces of equipment. All are at 400 hrs for change except 4 Nissans that shear down to 30 at 320 hours, and 4 Deutz that Oxidize to 50 at about 300 hours. (5 consecutive changes analized) The next change will be to Delo 400 to see the difference.So until you know how your engine behaves with your favorite oil, best to stick with what the manuf. says.
Widman,good point about the oxidation reversing the effects of the VI breakdown. I have always done the 3k oil change so hopefully have kept ahead of both ill-effects. My point about the years-ago-reason for the 3k oil changes is just that,,,the oil had age related problems that would start showing up sometime around that 3k mark. I was talking about VI breakdown and you brought up the oxidation problems,,,both are definite age related oil problems.
I just prefer to get some better lubrication in the engine after some initial wear in has occurred. I would rather prevent oil consumption than wait until it happens so I start thickening up at about 50k miles.
With one exception, all my older vehicles went to about 200k with no oil consumption using 3k changes, that one exception was a Blazer that had some heat issues (caused by a repair gone bad) and only used 10w/30 oil (first vehicle I ever used 10w/30 in actually).
We all have our reasons to do as we do, the thing I enjoy is hearing so many points of view. I've never lived anywhere that it really gets cold for example, and have never seen a need for thin oils that can crank in sub-0 temps. Sounds like you live in a hot place like I'm used to (I live in central NC now, Florida previously, and see more heat in summer than extreme cold in winter)
Good luck with those 100f temps, sounds like your in the same drought that we are in!
see ya
Rando
I just prefer to get some better lubrication in the engine after some initial wear in has occurred. I would rather prevent oil consumption than wait until it happens so I start thickening up at about 50k miles.
With one exception, all my older vehicles went to about 200k with no oil consumption using 3k changes, that one exception was a Blazer that had some heat issues (caused by a repair gone bad) and only used 10w/30 oil (first vehicle I ever used 10w/30 in actually).
We all have our reasons to do as we do, the thing I enjoy is hearing so many points of view. I've never lived anywhere that it really gets cold for example, and have never seen a need for thin oils that can crank in sub-0 temps. Sounds like you live in a hot place like I'm used to (I live in central NC now, Florida previously, and see more heat in summer than extreme cold in winter)
Good luck with those 100f temps, sounds like your in the same drought that we are in!
see ya
Rando
Is there any confidence that wide range synthetic oils(5w50..) will gain favor with folks on this and similar forums?Or, are they simply not needed?
Is there really any danger in using them?I hope to get analysis on the Castrol Syntec 5W50 at some upcoming pitstop.Thanks.
Ron
I think there's 2 confusing issues here. 1. A 5-50 can't stand up long term vs. 2. Why use a 5-50 when manuf. spec. out a 5-30.
Well firstly, I'm sure Castrol's done it's homework and the oil is fine. Heck in Eur. they have a Castrol 10W-60, Mobil has a M1 5-40 and 5-50 and they work fine for intervals much greater than in the U.S. (engines are made better though...but that's another story...they also drive 100mph all day @ 4-5k rpm). Bottom line, there should be no real concerns with large spread viscosity oils.
As far as the second point, nobody has really addressed why one engine specs. out 5-30 or even 5-20 for that matter, and another 5-50 or 15-50. Why does Mobil even sell 15-50? Which U.S. made vehicles spec. this out? So is it OK to use in your Ford? From the specs, it's not too much different at lower temps., but thicker at higher temps.. What does this mean? It will start and flow just like a standard 5 weight, but will remain thick at higher temps.. Do you need the thickness in this particular engine? I think the jury's still out on this one....do you assume the recommended 5-30 is adequate or do you bog the engine down with a 50 weight just for added protection you don't really need. I agree...an oil analysis is in order. Secondly, if you're using a quality synthetic, not consuming oil and there's no visible sludge, then there's probably no need to go with the higher viscosity. You're simply loosing HP and adding drag on the engine. So I guess the bottom line is to use the thinnest recommended by the manufacturer and then switch to thicker as demands require.
Well firstly, I'm sure Castrol's done it's homework and the oil is fine. Heck in Eur. they have a Castrol 10W-60, Mobil has a M1 5-40 and 5-50 and they work fine for intervals much greater than in the U.S. (engines are made better though...but that's another story...they also drive 100mph all day @ 4-5k rpm). Bottom line, there should be no real concerns with large spread viscosity oils.
As far as the second point, nobody has really addressed why one engine specs. out 5-30 or even 5-20 for that matter, and another 5-50 or 15-50. Why does Mobil even sell 15-50? Which U.S. made vehicles spec. this out? So is it OK to use in your Ford? From the specs, it's not too much different at lower temps., but thicker at higher temps.. What does this mean? It will start and flow just like a standard 5 weight, but will remain thick at higher temps.. Do you need the thickness in this particular engine? I think the jury's still out on this one....do you assume the recommended 5-30 is adequate or do you bog the engine down with a 50 weight just for added protection you don't really need. I agree...an oil analysis is in order. Secondly, if you're using a quality synthetic, not consuming oil and there's no visible sludge, then there's probably no need to go with the higher viscosity. You're simply loosing HP and adding drag on the engine. So I guess the bottom line is to use the thinnest recommended by the manufacturer and then switch to thicker as demands require.
I use Mobil 1 0W30 (have used the Amsoil and Mobil 5W30) in my Pontiac Grand Prix with 3.1 v6 and I do not even need to add any until around 3000 miles (I do 7000 mile changes), and then that is only about 1/4 of a quart.
I have 223,000 miles, car runs beautiful and gets around 32 mpg.
Here in Minnesota it does get cold, but sometimes it can heat up in the summer, so I go through extremes in temperature.
And if I visit back home (northern Virginia)it is really hot and humid down there.
Good Day,
Steven
For every story of someone running 0w-30 for 500,000 miles with nary a problem, there's a story of some old-timer running straight 40 weight for 500,000 miles with nary a problem. The oil -- brand, weight, type -- needs to be matched to the engine and the driving. My car drinks Mobil 1 5w-30 like it's water, and I started using it with 9,000 miles on the odometer, in Chicago (extremes of both hot and cold).quote:
Originally posted by icruse:
I use Mobil 1 0W30 (have used the Amsoil and Mobil 5W30) in my Pontiac Grand Prix with 3.1 v6 and I do not even need to add any until around 3000 miles (I do 7000 mile changes), and then that is only about 1/4 of a quart.
I have 223,000 miles, car runs beautiful and gets around 32 mpg.
Here in Minnesota it does get cold, but sometimes it can heat up in the summer, so I go through extremes in temperature.
And if I visit back home (northern Virginia)it is really hot and humid down there.
Good Day,
Steven
[/QB]
I have a '99 Saturn SL. I ran "Saturn" oil and filters for the first three changes, then switched to Mobil 1 5w-30 with Mobil 1 filter at 9k. Changed oil and filter every 3000 miles or less. At 50,000 miles, started using half a quart between changes. This steadily climbed to a quart between changes until 97000, when I replaced the valve stem seals thinking they were the culprit. (After all, they had to be. I was running the best synthetic oil made, and changing ever 3k, so the engine wear had to be about nil, right? :-|) That didn't do the trick, and I switched to Mobil 1 10w-30: no noticeable positive effect on consumption -- climbed to 2 quarts between changes. Switched to Delvac 1 5w-40, and consumption dropped back to just under a quart between changes. This was more than acceptable, but concern over the high ash content led me to Amsoil 10w-40, which I've been using since 115,000 miles. Consumption was at 1.5 quarts between changes (still every 3k), but climbed again to over 2 quarts. I'm just finishing up an Auto-RX application with Castrol GTX 10w-40. Consumption is the same, and I'll probably go back to the Delvac 1 when I'm through with this application, ash be ****ed. So that's my sad history!
LUKE, USE THE FORCE.....
I mean MSPARKS, tell us what you meant by:
"Not everybody is in the know about proper use of lubricant, and VII, and proper Vis. Luckly I learned the ways of the force "
I mean MSPARKS, tell us what you meant by:
"Not everybody is in the know about proper use of lubricant, and VII, and proper Vis. Luckly I learned the ways of the force "
Kev99sl,
Do you mainly have blue smoke when you start up?
That would indicate valve GUIDES or seals which you have already replaced seals right?
Do you have blue smoke while you are driving down the road?
That could be sticking/worn/broken ring(s) or maybe even oil coming into the intake through the pcv..is the pcv valve oily?
You can also check the plugs to see if the issue is only 1 or 2 cylinders, or all of them, helps diag an intake problem or a cylinder problem.
Some things oil just can't fix, I had a new reman'd engine that kept going through oil and fouling plugs, they kept on replacing seals but no good...It was the guides, they were bad from install, but they get worn too and they aren't replaced as easy.
good luck
Do you mainly have blue smoke when you start up?
That would indicate valve GUIDES or seals which you have already replaced seals right?
Do you have blue smoke while you are driving down the road?
That could be sticking/worn/broken ring(s) or maybe even oil coming into the intake through the pcv..is the pcv valve oily?
You can also check the plugs to see if the issue is only 1 or 2 cylinders, or all of them, helps diag an intake problem or a cylinder problem.
Some things oil just can't fix, I had a new reman'd engine that kept going through oil and fouling plugs, they kept on replacing seals but no good...It was the guides, they were bad from install, but they get worn too and they aren't replaced as easy.
good luck
- Status
Similar threads
